Dog Community

dog rivalry

Posted : 7/21/2011 8:56:53 AM

I have two neutered male dogs, one an 18-month-old dachshund mix, Cooper, and the other a 12-month-old lab mix, Coal. Both are sweet, nonaggressive dogs who take orders from humans very well. Neither has a dominant personality, and Cooper could even be described as timid or meek in temperament. Most of the time, they get along well, but they frequently fight. I hate to use the word "fight", because they're not out for blood, but they're not playing either. I'm aware this is a pack thing. They accept my kids and I as "over" them, but neither wants the other dog "over" him. I know it's anthropomorphic, but we joke that Cooper's attitude is "I'm not submitting to him, he's an idiot." and Coal's attitude is "He's not the boss of me." Anyway, if I scold them, they'll stop. And if I don't intervene, Coal "wins" (They'll tussle and snarl and growl and eventually Coal will pin Cooper with his mouth over Cooper's neck and Cooper will stop fighting.) Nobody's ever broken skin or anything, and like I said, most of the time, they're totally fine, and if I try to separate them, they're both miserable. But I worry that it could get dangerous. And even if it doesn't escalate, it's annoying and disruptive. I realize, in hindsight, I shouldn't have gotten two males, but they were both odd rescue situations, and I thought it would be okay as long as I got them fixed. But I really don't want to get rid of either of them. Does anyone have any advice on how I can stop the fighting? Thanks so much.

sharismom

Posted : 7/21/2011 10:03:07 AM

Sherrie273
I realize, in hindsight, I shouldn't have gotten two males, but they were both odd rescue situations, and I thought it would be okay as long as I got them fixed.

There are many situations where males can peacefully co-exist, though there are times when neutering has little to do with it.

Given the size difference, the lab could do some serious damage to the dachshund and you will have a big mess on your hands. I am a little confused by your statement that they are fine most of the time when earlier in the paragraph you said they fight frequently. I would think a crate and rotate routine needs to be initiated and used ASAP. Even if you think they are miserable without each other, together it sounds (from your post) like it's not working.

Sherrie273
But I really don't want to get rid of either of them

This is commendable, and I want to first say thank you for giving these boys a home. It will be hard, but you can keep them both if you manage the behavior (crate & rotate). If it isn't possible, somewhere down the line you may need to consider re-homing one.

espencer

Posted : 7/21/2011 1:37:29 PM

Yes, two males can co exist without problems and also 2 females but not everybody knows how to handle them if there are issues in between them.

You have to hire a professional behaviorist. It will be close to impossible to fix the issue trough a forum. The behaviorist will teach you what to look for and it has a lot to do with body language.

The issue you have is what you dont do AFTER you separate them. Most likely once you separate them they still have this attitude of "I'll get you next time". THAT is what you need to work with, to teach them that there should not be a next time and that is a rule in your house. Once again, to learn how you need to hire somebody.

The goal is to co exist peacefully, you could rotate, re home, etc. easy fix, but that does not solve the fighting issue when they are together and that's what you want.

The behaviorist will teach you how to let them know that neither of them is above the other and to look for what triggers the "discussions"

Sherrie273

Posted : 7/21/2011 3:36:48 PM

Thanks for the replies so far. To clarify, they usually get along, but a few times a week, they get into a fight. From my human perspective, it's over silly stuff. They never fight over food or attention, which I would think is more common. I can play fetch with them and they'll race and sometimes even wrestle for the ball, but never get pissy. But I have a bay window and when someone knocks on the door, both dogs will jump in the window and fight over whatever prime spot they both want to bark and see from. Another common scenario is the dachshund snoozing and the lab either pestering him to play or just walking/laying too close to him, and the dachshund growls, and the lab growls back, and so on until they're actually fighting. But for every one time this happens, there are nine times that the lab will wake him up and they'll run off and play or they'll sleep snuggled sweetly close together. Also, Cooper is about 20 pounds, and Coal is about 30 pounds, so even though the lab mix is definitely bigger, he's actually pretty small as far as lab mixes go.

sharismom

Posted : 7/21/2011 3:49:29 PM

I wonder if you worked on their "doorbell" manners might help alleviate the "who gets the best spot to bark" scenario you describe. It sounds like there are times they are trying to sort out who is the alpha. I think a reputable trainer/behviorist is an excellent suggestion. IMO, no matter how equally they are sized, damage can be done and sometimes, once things start escalating, it can go in that direction more easily the next time.

JackieG

Posted : 7/21/2011 3:53:32 PM

sharismom

I wonder if you worked on their "doorbell" manners might help alleviate the "who gets the best spot to bark" scenario you describe. It sounds like there are times they are trying to sort out who is the alpha. I think a reputable trainer/behviorist is an excellent suggestion. IMO, no matter how equally they are sized, damage can be done and sometimes, once things start escalating, it can go in that direction more easily the next time.

Good advice.

ETA, I believe anyone having behavior problems with their dogs and even those who aren't should educate themselves on dogs and dog behavior. We often believe we know all about dogs because most of us have owned them or been around them all of our lives. A great book that really helped me some years ago is 'Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson. She's a professional dog trainer and behaviorist.

DougB

Posted : 7/21/2011 4:23:30 PM

Are you sure they are fighting and not just playing rough? I haven't seen it of course, but if there is no blood or injuries, there is restraint being used. Dogs really fighting get hurt quickly.

Jewlieee

Posted : 7/21/2011 5:19:47 PM

I dont think we really have enough info here. It sounds to me like theres really not much going on other than normal multi dog home scrapping. Not all dogs get along all the time. Do all kids always get along? Do you never argue with your spouse? I have 2 females and they get scrappy with each other but otherwise are fine. Its hard to really know without seeing a video or something,

JackieG

Posted : 7/21/2011 6:07:16 PM

Jewlieee
I dont think we really have enough info here. It sounds to me like theres really not much going on other than normal multi dog home scrapping. Not all dogs get along all the time. Do all kids always get along? Do you never argue with your spouse? I have 2 females and they get scrappy with each other but otherwise are fine. Its hard to really know without seeing a video or something,

That's a good point. With four dogs we have the occasional disagreements. Mostly it's rumbles or a lifted lip but sometimes it gets more intense. I know my dogs pretty well and I feel fairly certain that they wouldn't get into a fight that would cause injuries or damage their relationships with each other. Saying that, I am very aware that things can change in dog relationships and I keep a pretty close eye on how they interact.

Sherrie273

Posted : 7/21/2011 6:40:36 PM

I'm 100% sure they are not playing, but that's not to say that I think they would hurt each other. I don't think they would. But I've never had dogs who fight, so I thought I'd consult "dog people." :) They can play rough and make a lot of noise when they play rough, but it's completely different than when they're fighting. I agree that to me it's like siblings who fight. That's why I used the word "rivalry" like sibling rivalry, and that's how I describe it to my girls (no, they're not playing when they do that, but they're not really trying to hurt each other either -- kind of like getting in an arguing and shoving match with your sister). But I don't like it with the dogs any more than I like it when my kids shove each other ;) I do think I'll isolate doorbell manners and work on that. Thanks for the suggestion. I'd say easily half of their fights are over someone knocking on the door. In writing it down for you all, I also realize that another problem is Coal wanting to be a playful when Cooper wants to be left alone and then Coal getting pissy that cooper's getting pissy. So maybe I'll figure out a spot where Cooper can go that Coal can't get to. Thanks so much for your ideas and comments! You all have some beautiful puppies!

Beejou

Posted : 7/21/2011 7:06:31 PM

I'd like to ask how much exercise Cooper and Coal are getting. If they're all spun up from being indoors or in their own yard all day and the doorbell rings, everyone's amped up with way too much extra energy and because of that, the excitement and/or anxiety is too much for one or both to handle. I have found whatever is going on wth my dogs, past or present, it would be helped out by really ramping up their amount of fetch time, walking around the neighborhood, and just getting them out to new smells and letting their minds get a new stimulus. It is in no way shape or form a FIX, but it helps to take the edge off while you're fixing. I know when my little Royce dog is getting to be a pest to T-Bone, he needs me to take him out.

spiritdogs

Posted : 7/22/2011 9:16:36 AM

JackieG
sharismom

I wonder if you worked on their "doorbell" manners might help alleviate the "who gets the best spot to bark" scenario you describe. It sounds like there are times they are trying to sort out who is the alpha. I think a reputable trainer/behviorist is an excellent suggestion. IMO, no matter how equally they are sized, damage can be done and sometimes, once things start escalating, it can go in that direction more easily the next time.

Good advice.

ETA, I believe anyone having behavior problems with their dogs and even those who aren't should educate themselves on dogs and dog behavior. We often believe we know all about dogs because most of us have owned them or been around them all of our lives. A great book that really helped me some years ago is 'Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson. She's a professional dog trainer and behaviorist.

I would second that. Find someone qualified to help you and please read this first: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf.

The IAABC or Truly Dog Friendly have listings for behavior professionals and trainers.

corollagirl

Posted : 8/29/2011 6:45:42 PM

Beejou
I'd like to ask how much exercise Cooper and Coal are getting. If they're all spun up from being indoors or in their own yard all day and the doorbell rings, everyone's amped up with way too much extra energy and because of that, the excitement and/or anxiety is too much for one or both to handle. I have found whatever is going on wth my dogs, past or present, it would be helped out by really ramping up their amount of fetch time, walking around the neighborhood, and just getting them out to new smells and letting their minds get a new stimulus. It is in no way shape or form a FIX, but it helps to take the edge off while you're fixing. I know when my little Royce dog is getting to be a pest to T-Bone, he needs me to take him out.

thats how my two feel. when they were inside alot my big dog, chester, would mess with robbie, my little one. now its vice versa in a playing way. they chase each other but doesnt get too far. we lived in an apartment and that was way too small and the walks werent cutting it. so when we got a yard and a a house they were calmer inside.

PawMaid

Posted : 8/29/2011 8:13:46 PM

Sherrie273
Another common scenario is the dachshund snoozing and the lab either pestering him to play or just walking/laying too close to him, and the dachshund growls, and the lab growls back, and so on until they're actually fighting. But for every one time this happens, there are nine times that the lab will wake him up and they'll run off and play or they'll sleep snuggled sweetly close together. Also, Cooper is about 20 pounds, and Coal is about 30 pounds, so even though the lab mix is definitely bigger, he's actually pretty small as far as lab mixes go.

You have gotten some great advice.I just wanted to mention that I had 3 Males and a female. My 2 Corgi males would get in fights. Once I learned the signs / body language that started this behavior I put at stop to it.For example Magnus would give Rogue the hairy eye ( stare straight at him) at first Rogue would look away,Magnus would stare then get peeved and tear in to him.Hence no hairy eye allowed.This a course involved training on my part and the dogs, consulting a behaviorist or professional trainer is a good idea.

Liesje

Posted : 8/29/2011 8:24:38 PM

Just wanted to weigh in and say I have three male dogs and two of them are intact male German shepherds that both do protection type training (meaning they are not shy, submissive dogs, quite the opposite). It is definitely possible to have two males, but sometimes some dogs (regardless of breed, sex, reproductive status) just don't get along. Other times it is quite manageable or even fixable.

As for the doorbell thing... take this with a grain of salt since I'm only going by what is described and not observed... I've seen a few times in my own dogs that when they are in a very aroused state (not sexual arousal, but say a strange, large man comes on my property and starts creeping up to the gate so the dogs come to the gate and bark), I've seen one dog sort of "redirect" at the other. I don't see jockeying for position, I see the dog's level of alertness and possibly even aggression escalate (not "bad" aggression, mind you this is a breed that *should* be protective of it's pack, owner, and property), having another dog right there going crazy might cause a bit of a snark. I've never had a dog fight but I've had two or three times total where when both dogs are very excited, one might take a snap at the other (and the other might not notice, might not care, or might feel like, "hey!" and take a jab back). Since it never escalates I haven't really addressed this directly, I just go out and say "thank you" which is my cue for "yes you have alerted me that someone is in our personal space, stop barking now". If this is happening a lot, then I don't want to make light of it but was just thinking that you may need to look at it more from the angle of the individual dogs' behavior when someone approaches and not just separating them. They might both just be getting overstimulated in that situation and that's why they get at each other.