Just because your dog doesn't...

Oh yes.  Over the years I have received so much "advise" about Sheba.  Sheba is not agressive, she is fear reactive.  So no, putting a muzzle on her and making her accept the attention of total strangers just isn't gonna do it.  Nor, I'm sorry to say, does the gradual shortening of distance between her and what she's afraid of.  She is afraid of EVERYONE who is not immediate family.  Less so if she is off lead where she has the option to fight or run and she's gonna run, but there is always the chance.  She IS a dog.

The best we can do with the Princess is to manage her behavior and her interactions.  She is simply terrified of most other humans and all the behavioralists the world aren't gonna change that.  We've certainly made progress with her but asking her to love and welcome strangers is like asking a mentally challenged child with an IQ in the 70's to earn straight A's in a regular classroom, regular studies.  That's setting the child up for failure, much as we would set Sheba up for failure by trying to force a situation.  Sheba is a wonderful and very loving girl, with family, and it was MY mistake, in not knowing about fear stages and the long term damage the jerk in the next campsite was doing to her.

She's happy in her own environment and I have no desire to take her into crowded places where she is going to be unhappy.  So, gee, thanks for the suggestions world, but please stop judging what you don't understand.

glenmar

She's happy in her own environment and I have no desire to take her into crowded places where she is going to be unhappy.  So, gee, thanks for the suggestions world, but please stop judging what you don't understand.

Oh boy I get you.  Loud and clear.

Gaci is 7.5 years old. She's had a TON of training, a TON of behaviour mod (and it has helped, it has helped a ton). And she still does not ever want a stranger to touch her. And she's never going to. And I fully respect that, and protect her from those kind-but-intrusive folks. To see her in public you most often would have no idea she had the fears that she did (and in some situations still does).  She no longer lunges and barks, she acts quite calm and can be in a crowd of people and be quite confident in appearance. But she knows when she's out shes "on the job" and that mom will look out for her.  But she has a no-go zone when it comes to touching or reaching for her.  Behaviour mod works, but only within the scope of the dog's ability. There are some things you just can't erase, overwrite completely, or magically change into "happy" things. But you do the best you can, and you love the dog that you have.

Unfortunately I work with more cases like this than you would want to believe! I love that you understand that, but it's very hard when you try to tell the owners of some dogs that their dog will likely never like being petted by strangers. Ever. Period. Done.  They think the dog should "just get over it" or that somehow if they just "keep trying" the dog will someday get it. Sigh. When the owners just don't get it, I truly feel badly for the dogs, because they are ones who suffer.

But at the same time I have seen the wonders this *can* do for some dogs that are on that edge - that are riding the line between truly damaged and workable.  And in some cases miracles do happen!

spiritdogs

I often want to tell them that just because their dog didn't react badly to the advice doesn't mean that someone else isn't at risk trying it. 

and just because some dogs are aggressive and have over the top reactions...doesn't mean ALL those training methods that would set those relative few dogs off...are worthless to the rest. A narrow view is boring...no matter which direction the hallways of your (general) mind are running.

rwbeagles

spiritdogs

I often want to tell them that just because their dog didn't react badly to the advice doesn't mean that someone else isn't at risk trying it. 

 

and just because some dogs are aggressive and have over the top reactions...doesn't mean ALL those training methods that would set those relative few dogs off...are worthless to the rest. A narrow view is boring...no matter which direction the hallways of your (general) mind are running.

I agree, Gina.   There's no one size fits all in dog training. 

I think not only does it depend on the individual dog how well a method will go over but also who is using the method.  I can do pretty much anything to my own dog whereas others would not be able to. 

JackieG

rwbeagles

spiritdogs

I often want to tell them that just because their dog didn't react badly to the advice doesn't mean that someone else isn't at risk trying it. 

 

and just because some dogs are aggressive and have over the top reactions...doesn't mean ALL those training methods that would set those relative few dogs off...are worthless to the rest. A narrow view is boring...no matter which direction the hallways of your (general) mind are running.

I agree, Gina.   There's no one size fits all in dog training. 

The only one size fits all that I can see is that we don't have the right to cause fear or pain to the dog in the name of training it.  As to there being many different paths toward a goal, I wholeheartedly agree that all dogs do not respond to the same things.  I have a very open mind when it comes to strange training methods - as in the one time when I actually bent down to sniff a trash barrel to convince a dog that there was nothing to fear from it (it worked, amazingly enough), but I long ago learned that I would rather a dog look to me for guidance than away from me out of confusion or fear.  I think Glenda's and Kim's examples are great, and their sensitivity to their dogs' emotional states is wonderful.  It works to protect your dog, too, rather than only focusing on changing things.  Some dogs come hard-wired for certain behavior, which is modified by their experiences (or lack thereof) and hard to change once solidified.  I think it was Nick Dodman who once said that you could change a dog with "suburban dog syndrome" but who has the hundreds of volunteers that you would need to knock on your door every day in order to do the conditioning?

Ah, thank you Anne. And Kim too. There's been a teeny bit of guilt that maybe *I* was the reason that she hit the edge of her improvement.  So thank you both for not thinking I'm a lousey owner.

That one campground experience, even tho it lasted four or five days, really changed my girl.  She was a typical gsd, but pretty happy and outgoing and NOT afraid of people.  After that jerk, well, everyone started to frighten her.  I should have known more, but, I can coulda, woulda, shoulda all day and all night and it doesn't change a thing.

Jewlieee

Everyone thinks their training methods are best. The best trainers however are those that are open minded to what may work for individual dogs and what is trying to be accomplished. I think theres a huge difference btwn training a dog to be a house pet, or do dog agility, obedience, etc over training a dog to apprehend criminals. When you train a dog to have a certain level of independent thinking and decision making you start getting into stuff a normal avg owner would never have to deal with, nor would most trainers. I just dont think it is cut and dry.

Couldn't have said it better myself!  Even when I talk about successes we are having with our aggressive bulldog, it seems everyone is quick to say it's great....BUT (and there is always a BUT)...they think we should try something else to get better results and so on!  I totally agree!  That is why we are using 2 different trainers with our Stewie...one for obedience and another for socialization techniques and tips dealing with his behavior problems. We found 2 trainers that would GREAT in conjunction for our little troublmaker!

Billy was 6 when he came to us but it was abundanly clear after a few weeks he'd been pretty badly traumatized in different situations and it came out in the oddest places. 

The little blonde girl who made mincemeat out of him in foster care -- that we worked on for years and really got MUCH further than we ever thought we would in taming that fear aggression he had (ONLY for little blonde girls or multiple "hands" RUSHING him towards his ears). 

But the one thing that sticks in my mind that touches on what you're saying has to do with teaching him a simple "lie down" command. 

Right out of the box when we got him his "sit" was flawless.  But when we started obedience training with him and tried (never thinking THIS was gonna be hard) to teach him to "lie down" -- he would stand there and look at you and begin to **tremble**.  And if you repeated "down" in a no-nonsense voice, pointing to the floor in front of him he would simply start to shake WORSE.  And heaven help you if you tried to gently 'help' him towards the floor in any way.

 Agressive? Nope. 

TERRIFIED.  He would shake and shiver and literally turn into a STONE statue -- but one who shook and trembled violently.

WHAT did that idiot do to him?  We'll never know.  But we went thru **every** tried and true trick to try to get him to lie down.

No way, no how.  Was NOT happening.  And it was absolutely heartbreaking to see the physical response to the word "down". 

 It's SUCH a common word -- and we literally discarded the idea of trying to just call it something else.  Cos if it had to do with him lying down "on command" in ANY way -- it was NOT happening!

so finally -- we just plain got really creative.  I'd see him lie down just of his own accord to relax and I would say out loud to David "Wow -- that is a NICE 'lay down' Billy is doing, isn't it??"

David would play along -- and we'd mention EVERY time we SAW him get into a prone position what an AWESOME and special thing that was. Nice lie down Billy" and David and I continued to "remark" to each other verbally how GREAT it was and eventually we began to directly address HIM "nice lay down!"

(literally it was a step closer to giving a command -- but to direct our comments TO him rather that just talking "about" him).

It took literally about 3 months.  Finally we went back to "obedience" class and I casually said "Billy - lay down" -- and he did, and no fear, no shaking, no trembling.  My trainer was so proud she nearly cried. 

It really unlocked a whole world of communication with him -- cos he knew he wasn't going to be forced and with *him* the idea of doing something merely to **please** me was a powerful motivator. 

But man -- everyone had a theory on how you could "lure" him into a down or force it or whatever -- and he'd obviously "been there done THAT" in a horrible way. 

He taught me much about just continuing to try and really listening to the dog to see what it really was that triggered the fear response. 

(have I said this week how much I miss him??)

I don't think that the purpose of this thread was to address asking for advise on the forum.  I think it was simply "folks in general" in the big wide world.

I have found this forum extremely helpful in getting suggestions that actually work quite well.  However, simply because of me being me, I simply out of hand rejected anything that had to do with force or negative training. 

HERE I can get ideas that are truly helpful and go with them.  A very good example was my big guy Thor on lead.  That boy would literally drag me down the street.  When I tried "being a tree" he simply pulled my roots out of the ground.  Because of the issues with him, once that was resolved, I worked to find a better way for future gigantic dogs who are much stronger than I am.  And, as a result of that, I had SIX gsd's who I could walk all at once on lead, or take off lead and know absolutely that they would not "run off" even in pursuit of a wild critter.  So, for me, as long as folks let their own values and teaching beliefs be their guide in sorting ideas from the forum, this is an excellent resource.

I *think* Anne was frustrated by the big wide world in general with random advise and suggestions that simply aren't helpful.  I know that with my pretty white girl I've gotten so very many unsolicited comments that *I* was tempted to show aggression.

I had to take Sheba to an e vet last summer.  Total stranger, the eye area was severely damaged, she was in a great deal of pain, confused and flat out terrified of all the strangers trying to get at her.  And not one of these professionals was approaching her in an easy gentle manner.  Sheba is fear reactive, but according to her records from that clinic she is EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE.  That little bit of attitude ticked me off far more than the excessive bill!  Look at the situation people before you slap a label on an animal that will follow them.

calliecritturs

Billy was 6 when he came to us but it was abundanly clear after a few weeks he'd been pretty badly traumatized in different situations and it came out in the oddest places. 

The little blonde girl who made mincemeat out of him in foster care -- that we worked on for years and really got MUCH further than we ever thought we would in taming that fear aggression he had (ONLY for little blonde girls or multiple "hands" RUSHING him towards his ears). 

But the one thing that sticks in my mind that touches on what you're saying has to do with teaching him a simple "lie down" command. 

Right out of the box when we got him his "sit" was flawless.  But when we started obedience training with him and tried (never thinking THIS was gonna be hard) to teach him to "lie down" -- he would stand there and look at you and begin to **tremble**.  And if you repeated "down" in a no-nonsense voice, pointing to the floor in front of him he would simply start to shake WORSE.  And heaven help you if you tried to gently 'help' him towards the floor in any way.

 Agressive? Nope. 

TERRIFIED.  He would shake and shiver and literally turn into a STONE statue -- but one who shook and trembled violently.

WHAT did that idiot do to him?  We'll never know.  But we went thru **every** tried and true trick to try to get him to lie down.

No way, no how.  Was NOT happening.  And it was absolutely heartbreaking to see the physical response to the word "down". 

 It's SUCH a common word -- and we literally discarded the idea of trying to just call it something else.  Cos if it had to do with him lying down "on command" in ANY way -- it was NOT happening!

so finally -- we just plain got really creative.  I'd see him lie down just of his own accord to relax and I would say out loud to David "Wow -- that is a NICE 'lay down' Billy is doing, isn't it??"

David would play along -- and we'd mention EVERY time we SAW him get into a prone position what an AWESOME and special thing that was. Nice lie down Billy" and David and I continued to "remark" to each other verbally how GREAT it was and eventually we began to directly address HIM "nice lay down!"

(literally it was a step closer to giving a command -- but to direct our comments TO him rather that just talking "about" him).

It took literally about 3 months.  Finally we went back to "obedience" class and I casually said "Billy - lay down" -- and he did, and no fear, no shaking, no trembling.  My trainer was so proud she nearly cried. 

It really unlocked a whole world of communication with him -- cos he knew he wasn't going to be forced and with *him* the idea of doing something merely to **please** me was a powerful motivator. 

But man -- everyone had a theory on how you could "lure" him into a down or force it or whatever -- and he'd obviously "been there done THAT" in a horrible way. 

He taught me much about just continuing to try and really listening to the dog to see what it really was that triggered the fear response. 

(have I said this week how much I miss him??)

Your story reminds me of Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall in which she counsels people to just change the word.  Dogs spend so much time ignoring the word "come" that it can be easier to just retrain using a different word.  After all, it isn't the word that is important, it's the association between a given word and an action that makes sense to the dog.  So, you intuitively knew what good trainers know, and I commend you for it.

As for Glenda, of COURSE you are not a bad owner. How could someone as compassionate as you ever be bad?  The fact is that we all make mistakes in our training or socialization regimens.  One of the things I constantly have to watch out for, especially with Sequoyah, because she is so quick, is accidentally creating behavior chains that I did not intend;-)))

I *think* Anne was frustrated by the big wide world in general with random advise and suggestions that simply aren't helpful.  I know that with my pretty white girl I've gotten so very many unsolicited comments that *I* was tempted to show aggression.

Yup, pretty much.  Of course, I get frustrated a lot.  It's hard to be in a profession where everyone and his brother thinks they know better - imagine going to your dentist and telling him how to pull a tooth, or telling your doc to cut a little to the left to get that appendix out.