Pulling and Barking

ace130

As soon as we got out of the door, they instantly started pulling like crazy.

 

There is your problem (or part of it). Open the door BUT dont go out, just wait until they are not interested and stop looking outside and look disinterested. This will prevent them from crossing the door while on a hyper state of mind. Once you cross the door do the same exercise  on the other side.

The point is to make them believe that calm behavior will make them cross that door and calm behavior will make them start walking, not the other way around. You have to make sure that they are indeed calm, check on body language for this 

As for walking them together, I would have someone help at first so they are both being walked but each have a different handler.  I would personally never use a coupler or double walker because dogs can get excited or freak out and get very tangled, end up hurting themselves or each other.  I would definitely NOT use one on dogs that are still being trained to walk properly.  Also if they are still wearing corrective harnesses you need to be able to control which dog gets corrected and not have them tugging on each other.  I have walked three large adult dogs at once but everyone has their own leash and I can hold all three loose in my left hand but that is not something I transitioned to right away by myself.  With a dog still being trained how to walk, I have my husband come along.

Several things come to mind about the pulling on lead.  You've been walking them individually on the no-pull harness for a few weeks and each has been doing well.  But then you put their dual leash on and they're back to pulling.  I'd continue the no-pull harness walks for the time being.  If they've been pulling on the leash for a long time, it can take more than a few weeks to change that behavior.  Seeing improvement when using a training tool doesn't mean that the training is over.  I would also train one to walk on one side and one to walk on the other side. Do this training one dog at a time.  Get another no pull harness and start walking them together with one dog on each side. 

When you are ready to transition to a regular lead I would do it individually.  There is less chance of them getting excited and reverting back to the pulling.  Continue walking one dog at a time on a regular lead until you feel they have both learned not to pull.  Keep the dogs on the side of you that you have been using in the no pull harness training.  When both dogs walk nicely on a regular lead, one at a time, try them together but not on a dual lead. 

Barking at noises is normal for dogs.  When my dogs hear something outside that makes them bark, I go to the door or window and make a show of checking things out and then tell them "it's good, go lay down".  Most dogs will learn that a few barks is enough to alert you and that you will take it from there.  If they don't already go to their bed or a designated spot when told to, start that training.  Make going to their spot a wonderful, positive experience (yummy treats happen and praise) but don't allow them to disobey.  If they don't go, take them gently and put them in their spot. 

Your last problem is one that I would fix by not going to the dog park or anywhere that your dogs have freedom to run amok among strange dogs and people.  The potential for a big problem is huge.  Your dogs could hurt another dog and even if it's accidental, you will be to blame.  Your dogs could choose the wrong dog to tackle and could end up seriously hurt.  This kind of experience is not uncommon and then you potentially have a new problem.  Dog reactive dogs.  Think about how your dogs' behavior can impact another dog who might be timid and fearful.  I'm not a fan of letting my dogs play with dogs I don't know well.  Too much potential for serious problems and all the liability is on you.

Lots of good advice mentioned here.

What type of no-pull harness are you using? Most of the types of no-pull devices including the halti are designed to act as a quick fix to an overlying problem, they act as barrier that prevents the dog from pulling but does not actually correct the behavior. Which means, as soon as it is taken off, the dog is going to revert to it's old ways of pulling. I agree that each dog should be worked with individually before walking them together. Then, when they have perfected walking on a leash they should each have their own leash when walked together.

I think you would benefit most from seeking out a professional trainer who can show you methods on how this can be accomplished. Just a few sessions with a trainer will make a huge impact on your own handling skills and your dogs life. Labs tend to stay in a puppy state much longer then other breeds and can pose a challenge for many who own them. Don't get frustrated, many of us here have faced similar problems with our own dogs. Good luck!

Xebby

Most of the types of no-pull devices including the halti are designed to act as a quick fix to an overlying problem, they act as barrier that prevents the dog from pulling but does not actually correct the behavior. Which means, as soon as it is taken off, the dog is going to revert to it's old ways of pulling.

 

This is true but I'd like to add that using a training tool to stop unwanted behavior is often the first step to retraining a dog.  Think of it as a temporary crutch.  Breaking behavior patterns is an important part of retraining and often with strong dogs it's necessary to gain some control during walks. 

Karen Pryor has a great video and step by step instructions for teaching a loose leash walk.  clickertraining.com  You do need to create an account first but there's no charge for all the wonderful training advice on her site.  :)

Xebby

Labs tend to stay in a puppy state much longer then other breeds and can pose a challenge for many who own them.

 

I must disagree because as the owner and trainer of many Labs I've heard this for years and years.  It's really not true as I've known many Labs who have perfect manners at an early age.  The key is early training, as with all breeds.  But it doesn't mean the OP can't retrain her dogs to walk nicely on lead.  Too many people use the "Labs are puppies longer than other dogs" as an excuse.   Just my two cents on that subject and not intended to offend or seem critical, Xebby.

I must disagree because as the owner and trainer of many Labs I've heard this for years and years.  It's really not true as I've known many Labs who have perfect manners at an early age.  The key is early training, as with all breeds.  But it doesn't mean the OP can't retrain her dogs to walk nicely on lead.  Too many people use the "Labs are puppies longer than other dogs" as an excuse.   Just my two cents on that subject and not intended to offend or seem critical, Xebby.

No, not offending at all, I understand there is some debate over this theory and maybe this could be a subject for another thread. I haven't personally owned a lab but have sure dealt with many of the problems that people have with them. From my own experience, I have come across some Labs that do have their unique problems that seem more puppy-like then other dogs of the same age, it should not be used as an excuse but rather as a guide to know how to understand the breed. Your right, not all Labs are like this but for those who are it's a major reason I do see them surrendered to the shelter. The biggies issue I do see with this breed is that families are attracted to the dog because of how family friendly and popular they appear to be, then spend little time training but have high expectations from the dog. So yes, it does go back to the key being early training. There are many horrible breeders out there who know they can make money off this concept with no concerns to the dogs temperament and health problems.

Now, back to the OPs original concern. I use training tools as well. I'm not saying to completely stop using a no-pull harness but to solve the problem it would be best to find a trainer who can show how to use it to condition the dogs to learn the correct behavior. Some people are conformable always using a halti when they walk their dogs and IMO that's find if that is what works for them. There is a lot of information out there on what to do, what not to do, who's right who's wrong and sorting it out can be a pain. Find what works for your dogs without harming them. If your not comfortable with your dogs tackling other dogs during play then it's not time to take them to the dog park or let them off leash just yet. Some dogs can never be a "dog park dog" or walk off leash and that's alright.

 Lots of great advice.

 Having heard from those with a lot of Lab experience, mine comes from the Weim half..... and while they share a lot of similarities there are a lot of noticeable and enormous difference in the breeds.

 First of all - Weims can be quite territorial and were used as guard dogs back in Germany (when not hunting) when the breed was develooped they are very alert to sound and threat.  So they just need to be taught what the acceptable warning is.  Is it one bark? 3?  Then as Jackie advised have a way to let them know they are done, mine is "That's enough." 

 They also have a VERY aggressive play style.  This can easily escalate with the wrong dogs... sometimes it doesn't take much, either.  I'd say you may need to teach them play with manners separately.  I recently gave similar advice to some friends.  You need to step in.  This type of play can easily get out of control even between your two... so, don't hesitate to say ENOUGH and put your foot down.  My dogs would not think much of a dog that jumped on them, especially as a greeting.  As others have said this is poor manners and someone could easily get hurt. 

 I'd say keep them separate, which is a pain, I totally get that, but you have to take them to the park separately.  Remove them from their buddy and I don't think they'd be nearly as rude... with the two of them their energy/excitement plays off each other till it's probably highly elevated, and in there a touch of pack behavior and you have a recipe for disaster.  They need to greet other dogs properly and learn not to be so rough and slowly start introducing them back to the park together.  

 I missed it if you said elsewhere, their ages and sex?

Sera_J

I missed it if you said elsewhere, their ages and sex?

Sera_J

They also have a VERY aggressive play style.  This can easily escalate with the wrong dogs... sometimes it doesn't take much, either.  I'd say you may need to teach them play with manners separately.  I recently gave similar advice to some friends.  You need to step in.  This type of play can easily get out of control even between your two... so, don't hesitate to say ENOUGH and put your foot down.  My dogs would not think much of a dog that jumped on them, especially as a greeting.  As others have said this is poor manners and someone could easily get hurt.

My male is a year and a half old, and my female is right around 6 months. Both are fixed. I had my male for about a year before I got my female, and before she came along he had the same aggressive play style as he has now. I'm sure they feed off of each other's energy when playing with other dogs at the park, but I've had them at the park by themselves before and they play the exact same way. Do you have any tips or ideas on how to re-teach them manners around other dogs or how to play with other dogs if I do start taking them separately? As for the barking, it is 10 times worse when someone actually comes to the door. They will plant themselves there and bark and won't move, and when I finally open the door to let whomever it may be in they immediately start jumping on them and will not leave them alone. I have recently started training a "go to mat" technique so that I can tell them to go to the mat when people arrive, but I am not sold that it is going to work, as they are VERY high energy dogs. I will try the going to the door and telling them everything is alright and see how it works, but they are impossible to stop when someone is actually at the door.

FWIW, trying to learn how to overcome problem behavior from the limited advice you can get on the internet may not be the best possible strategy.  If you really want to get some good tips and training methods on dealing with the different problems you've described, I suggest you read some training/behavior books.  Patricia McConnell, Pat Miller, Jean Donalsdon and Karen Pryor all have some great books that would give you some great ideas.

Xebby's advice to consult a professional trainer is good too but finding the right trainer can be challenging.  Reading a few books will also help you understand what you're looking for in a trainer. :)

 That's what I was thinking (as to their ages) they sound like rascals!  That's also the main reason they probably haven't gotten into any scraps yet.... they still have their "puppy licenses", adults will be much more tolerant of an obnoxious puppy, but your males is set to expire any day now and if he did that to the wrong adult male..... you could have a real problem.

 Do you have any friends with tempermentally sound dogs, about 3-7'ish?  A nice adult, maternal bitch would be perfect.  My friends have dogs such as these, and I set my other friends up for play dates with them..... they played separately (they have 2 puppies) with mama, she put them in their place quickly.   Then we had them play with a patient adult male who can also help you teach them.  Aggressive play is not fun for most dogs and they need to learn what is acceptable.  By putting them in a situation to play with random dogs you could be setting them up for a bad encounter.  Often times, the other dog will stop playing, this is sign one that the dog is not having fun, in which case it maybe time for a time out for your dog. 

 As far as things you can do, step in when their play goes too far.  Put them in time outs... (so when they are playing in the house and they get too excited/aggressive) step in. 

 I was dog sitting one of my pups, a young bitch about 10 months old.  She is a super aggressive player, as most Weims, she and my adult male (her father) would play tirelessly, but sometimes she'd go too far.  You could tell because, as I said, my male would stop playing and not re-engage with her, turning away, trying to avoid her.  She'd start picking at him, bouncing on him grabbing ears, etc.  I'd step in and she'd get a time out.... she needed to learn it was unacceptable.  By about the 3rd time out (over the course of a day or two) she stopped.  When he told her, very politely may I add, "please stop."  she'd wander off. So, watch your dogs, when you start to see escalation (wish is what pups are more likely to do versus stop playing) it's time for a time out.  Do you have crates?

As to the barking, people will disagree with me, and that's fine.  Maybe they will have some other solutions that they would like to share.  I use a water bottle.  I give them the option to stop, if they continue, I squirt them, if they continue I continue.... once they stop, I quietly reward them, lots of pets, cookies... etc.  Not too much excitement, as mine will immediately start barking (mine really vocal :)

As to when guests come over, yeah, Weims and Labs can be terrible about jumping, they like to be in your face.  And everyone who comes over is there to see them!  Continue working with the mat, or if you have crates put them in crates when someone knocks, and they have to stay in there until they calm down.  This often has good success.  I've had friends who've had their dogs successfully trained to run to their crates when someone comes over.  Be sure to let them out when they've quieted down, but if they get too obnoxious when they are out, feel free to put them back in!  I warn my guests to ignore the dogs, it helps to make a quieter introduction.

JackieG

FWIW, trying to learn how to overcome problem behavior from the limited advice you can get on the internet may not be the best possible strategy. 

 

And Jackie and Xebby are of course right!!  Sometimes it's best to know when you're in over your head and get some help from a professional..... just be cautioned, not every "professional" is created equal! :)  Check references!!

Lani, we were posting about the same time.  I thought you gave some good tips and wasn't referring to your post or anyone else's. 

 Thank you for that Jackie, I didn't take it personally... but it is definitely good advice.  The internet is a great tool, but it's not a magic wand!!

Every bit of Lani's advice is based on the one true premise of how dogs learn.  Dogs repeat behavior they find rewarding and they avoid behavior that isn't.  The key can often be understanding why certain behavior is rewarding to the dog.  Then you can get a game plan going to deal with it.