I need help-Lilith bit my son in the face

    • Gold Top Dog

    poodleOwned
    Trust me, she literally loves everyone,

     

     

    This is interesting. Labs act like this. A very clever trainer once said to me (and it the evidence seems to gel) that we often get two extremes out of people that are anxious around other people. The first is this sort of behaviour, look at me i am so friendly,  and if you take another look it is a kind of anxiety. Another is shyness. it is probably so with dogs.

    I have found that dealing with this as an anxiety has never ever caused any harm, in fact  have found that i have had  success with counter conditioning for anxiety in several exercises that involve meet and greets. i am fairly sure that Trish McConnell has identified this as well.

     

     

    • Silver

    Regarding tollers in general. I did a quick search in the Finnish Kennel Club's database, which lists all dogs registered in Finland (FCI sanctioned breeds) and their official results (health, shows and trials from 1988 onward). One of the latest additions is a part where dog owners (that are members of the Finnish Kennel Club) can provide information on the death of their dog. On to the results of my search:

    - so far there are 167 tollers that have been marked as deceased

    - of these 28 have died of old age, 23 had cancer, 10 died as a result of an accident (car or otherwise) and

    - 10 have been put down due to character issues

    - 5 of these ten have been classified as treacherous

    - 2 of the ten have been classified as aggressive

    - and 1 of them has an additional bit of info where it reads "Bit the owner's child with no clear reason and without any warning signs."

    Besides these I personally know of one toller that was put down after it had bit the owner's child.

    I'm not trying to say that tollers are a problem breed in this regard, but I wouldn't consider the breed a particularly good family dog. Mentally sound tollers are fine with children, but quite a few of even them don't really enjoy the attention. 

    (For comparison there are 386 Finnish Lapphunds that are marked as deceased and 11 of them have been put down due to character issues, two have been classified as treacherous and three have been classified as aggressive.)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Riiseli

    Regarding tollers in general. I did a quick search in the Finnish Kennel Club's database, which lists all dogs registered in Finland (FCI sanctioned breeds) and their official results (health, shows and trials from 1988 onward). One of the latest additions is a part where dog owners (that are members of the Finnish Kennel Club) can provide information on the death of their dog. On to the results of my search:

    - so far there are 167 tollers that have been marked as deceased

    - of these 28 have died of old age, 23 had cancer, 10 died as a result of an accident (car or otherwise) and

    - 10 have been put down due to character issues

    - 5 of these ten have been classified as treacherous

    - 2 of the ten have been classified as aggressive

    - and 1 of them has an additional bit of info where it reads "Bit the owner's child with no clear reason and without any warning signs."

    Besides these I personally know of one toller that was put down after it had bit the owner's child.

    I'm not trying to say that tollers are a problem breed in this regard, but I wouldn't consider the breed a particularly good family dog. Mentally sound tollers are fine with children, but quite a few of even them don't really enjoy the attention. 

    (For comparison there are 386 Finnish Lapphunds that are marked as deceased and 11 of them have been put down due to character issues, two have been classified as treacherous and three have been classified as aggressive.)

     

    How is this^^ helping the OP?

    • Silver

    tiffy
    How is this^^ helping the OP?

     

    It isn't. I'm pretty sure that all reasonable solutions have been covered. I see no point in repeating them.

    This is just to let everybody know that whatever a breeder may have implied tollers do occasionally have issues with aggression etc.

    • Gold Top Dog

     If you don't have anything constructive or helpful to add, IMO, don't say anything. Again, JMHO.

    • Silver

    Allrighty then I'll suggest tracking based on my limited exposure to tollers as an activity that should help calm the dog and tire them mentally in a good fashion. I do realise it may not be possible to organise such an activity to this dog, but if it is I strongly recommend it.

     I posted the previous information in part, because not everyone can access it or rather you all can, but unfortunately the english user interface has been offline for quite a long time now.

    And at this point I must also apologise for my lack of communication skills in english. It is not my first language as you can probably tell.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I think your English is fine. Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    Riiseli
    Allrighty then I'll suggest tracking based on my limited exposure to tollers as an activity that should help calm the dog and tire them mentally in a good fashion. I do realise it may not be possible to organise such an activity to this dog, but if it is I strongly recommend it.

     

     

    Good on you someone else who uses tracking to stimulate and help the dog and owner!!

    I do a lot of tracking too, and yes it does build confidence and respect for both ends of the lead.All my dogs so far have tracking titles.

    I just got a kind of sense that the "letting go" that is required for good tracking might be a bit tough in this case. It requires a lot of coaching..

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    tiffy

     If you don't have anything constructive or helpful to add, IMO, don't say anything. Again, JMHO.

    Perhaps you should take your own advice, Tiffy.  JMHO

    eta I think the more information a person has the better they can deal with any situation.  I think the information provided on Tollers could indeed be important for Vanessa and also to others reading.   There's no such thing as too much knowledge.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Riiseli, I want to apologize for my earlier post. It didn't quite come out the right way. Again, I do apologize.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Riiseli

    tiffy
    How is this^^ helping the OP?

     

    It isn't. I'm pretty sure that all reasonable solutions have been covered. I see no point in repeating them.

    This is just to let everybody know that whatever a breeder may have implied tollers do occasionally have issues with aggression etc.

     

     

    ALL breeds occasionally have problems with aggression, so IMO statistics like this are not that helpful.  Any bite/aggression statistics are suspect anyway because people often misidentify dog breeds or mixes, and so many bites go completely unreported, especially if it was a family dog involved.  Aggression issues must always be investigated and dealt with based on the individual dog's breed, temperament, environment, training, and health. 

    As to management of this dog in the future, I would not have her at face level with children.  That's not because she bit your son, it's because I suggest *never* allowing dogs at face level with kids as a routine preventive strategy.   I also would not have your son pat the dog and C/T to start.  Before getting to that stage, I would have your son, or any child, toss treats on the floor to the dog while you say a cue, such as "Look, it's (child's name)"  That way, the dog associates all kids with something cool, and learns to look at the floor, not the kid's hands, for the reward.  I also think that it's better to let the dog go up to the kid and sniff, and be rewarded with C/T for that (the child, at that point in the training does NOTHING -no pat, no speech, no nothing).  Something is off-putting about your son and if you can figure out what it is, you can also use counter-conditioning for that.  Ask your trainer to observe your son and your dog and offer an *honest* opinion of what it is about him that freaks your dog out.  That behavior is what you want to C/T your dog (always under threshold) for accepting, until it's no big deal.  Of course, if it's something about his physical handling of the dog, you may have to school him, too;-)

    One thing to consider - Tollers are working dogs, and a lot of them are one trial learners, so it may be that there was one inappropriate interaction between them that she remembered.  Or, it could just be a bossy pup with no respect for the weaker members of her social group.  In that case, he could do things like feed her her dinner by hand (flat handed, kibble by kibble).  Not only does he then become a bearer of resources, he is being associated with a powerful reinforcer - food.  He can ask her to "sit" or "down" to earn some of the kibble - if she doesn't, he just puts the food away, and tries again in fifteen minutes.  All of this under your supervision, of course.

    • Silver

    spiritdogs
    ALL breeds occasionally have problems with aggression, so IMO statistics like this are not that helpful.  Any bite/aggression statistics are suspect anyway because people often misidentify dog breeds or mixes, and so many bites go completely unreported, especially if it was a family dog involved.

    Sure ALL breeds occasionally have problems with aggression. I don't think I implied anything else. I also think it is helpful to know that this is not the only Toller with such issues.

    I have discussed the the breed with several enthusiasts and breeders as my close friend owns and breeds Tollers and is also the secretary of the Finnish Nova Scotia Duck Toller breed club. I have been to hunting trials and followed the best Finnish hunting trial Tollers during their training. I've also met several Tollers in informal situations and during obedience and agility trials. I've twice taken part in the breed club's summer camp, which gathers at least 150 Tollers and their families in the same spot for a weekend. The first time around I took part in blood tracking with my friend's brittany and during the second camp I and my friend's toller trained for a natural instinct test (first trial for retrievers in Finland, required from show champions as well). All this to say, that it was my previous experience with this particular breed that lead me to look for those statistics. As far as those statistics go I can identify individual dogs, if you want to know their indetities and pedigrees. I used these statistics instead of speaking based on my own experiences and the afore mentioned discussions, because this information is as reliable as it comes regarding aggression issues.

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    Sure ALL breeds occasionally have problems with aggression. I don't think I implied anything else.

    I don't recall implying that you implied anything else. Wink

    • Silver

    I'm sorry for my misunderstanding. If somebody quotes me I tend to think that whatever they post first after the quote is the part that relates to my post the most. Therefore that usually ends up being the first thing of one's comment I reply to.

    • Bronze

    How is Lilith been doing?