Daisy Bit Me Last Night :(

    • Gold Top Dog

    Daisy Bit Me Last Night :(

    Daisy bit me last night Sad I don't know who did it but there as water all over the floor and Daisy was in the kitchen I kept telling her to go but she wouldn't move so I was trying to scoot her with my leg but she growled at me so I then decided I was gonna pick her up and remove her she went on the attack .  She has been getting very aggressive towards me lately makes me cry. Her tooth didn't puncture the skin more like scraped me but the hand she did that to is swollen today. I was so upset after that happened. Just seems like the more I help her or try to love her the more aggressive she gets with me. 

    It's strange she doesn't like her paws touched she's always been that way no clue to why she'll growl at me if I do but she's fine with a vet or groomer who cuts her nails if I ever attempted to cut her nails myself she would attack me. Just don't know what to do with her anymore. She is still pacing at night it's like she wakes up at night, she'll pace until I give in and feed her something other than her dog food or until I give her a bone. Sometimes even after I give her the bone she'll still pace. 

    I'm pretty upset with her so I haven't tried loving on her or nothing figure I'll just leave her alone.Crying

    • Gold Top Dog

    First off, you had HIGH drama at your house last night -- everyone was on edge and upset. 

    She's blind -- so when she's standing somewhere she's unsure of how to navigate she probably freezes, mostly from fear.  this is NOT uncommon with animals who have lost a sense -- they get very protective of their own body space.  To add insult to injury you "surrounded" her to lift her off her feet -- NOOOOOOO not a good move.  It's a wonder you didn't get nailed in the face.

    Be **very** patient with her.  When she's in a position like that she's gonna be defensive.  Stop ... remember how vulnerable SHE feels and no she can't "just trust you" because she already knew she was surrounded by water which was likely why she hadn't moved -- she was probably afraid she'd slip. 

    I've seen this with both elderly dogs and dogs who hve lost a sense -- you really have to put yourself inside HER head and imagine how scared she may be of getting hurt and falling.Then you physically grabbed her (and remember she couldn't see that coming nor have a CLUE what you were going to do) so I"m not at all surprised she lashed out. 

    Next time -- keep little rope leashes all over the house.  Grab one off a door handle (that's where I keep mine) and snap it on and say  in a no-nonsense but not angry tone "Ok, Princess -- With me! Let's get thru the water."

     Not trying to be snarky -- but it's dfficult for us to realize they can't "Just trust me".  and all the high emotions last night would have made that all much much worse.

    • Gold Top Dog

     If it were my dog, I would take a step back and stop viewing it as a personal issue (as in "she doesn't like me", etc) and look at the symptoms individually. Temperament/attitude changes along with the pacing says discomfort to me. Any change in behavior from the norm warrants a vet visit

    • Gold Top Dog

    It's so hard she's changed since her eye sight is gone, I know it was my mistake by picking her up. I know when she paces at night I give into her because I feel bad and so I'll give her whatever she wants and I think she realizes that if she does pace she'll get what she wants. My thinking is she's 14 give her what she wants but sometimes it's like ok enough of the pacing at 4 in the morning.

    It's like her night is her day and day is her night since her eye sight is gone. I would do anything for her but it is hard on me seeing her this way. I feel like I'm not helping her and that I'm just not a good pet owner when it comes to her. 

    I usually tell her before I'm gonna pick her up that it's me and then pick her up but I don't recall saying it to her last night. Daisy has always been miss independent.  I guess last night I just got my feelings hurt ( stupid me ).

    • Gold Top Dog

    daisyprincess

    I usually tell her before I'm gonna pick her up that it's me and then pick her up but I don't recall saying it to her last night. Daisy has always been miss independent.  I guess last night I just got my feelings hurt ( stupid me ).

    Don't beat yourself up over it either. I do stuff that I later realize was a mistake with my dogs too. Live and learn. It's likely though that she was just reacting out of fear, so don't take it personal. I've never had a dog that was blind but I'm sure it comes with a lot of challenges, so take a breath and know that you're learning the same way that she is. (((Hugs)))

    • Gold Top Dog

    You've gotten excellent advice so far. My advice comes from a thought process, not experience, and I'm going to reiterate some of what Callie and grab said.

    She's blind. She's not always been blind, and being blind now could be very scary and confusing for her. I definitely second the leash recommendation. I'd also suggest leashing her when there aren't scary things happening, and leading her around -- just so she knows when the leash goes on, she's taken care of. Personally, I'd be pretty upset with you if I was standing there, getting fussed at and someone was poking me, then trying to pick me up. Announce what you're doing to her, even if you feel silly. Don't be angry about it, always be nice when approaching her. She can't see you, but she can hear you and feel you and smell you. Let her use those senses to figure out what's going on.

    I'd also recommend a vet check. After Misha's fight, I took him in to get blood drawn, and check for thyroid issues and any other physical causes of his behavior. Daisy's a senior dog, right? There are all sorts of things that could be going on with her now, and it's best to get a second opinion so you know if she needs medical or behavioral treatment.

    As for the foot issue -- if she's fine with the vet or the groomer, why push it? You know it aggravates her and now you're afraid of her, it will only increase the anxiety of the situation. Hope you figure something out. Fighting/biting can be a very scary thing. ((hugs))

    • Gold Top Dog

    daisyprincess
    I know when she paces at night I give into her because I feel bad and so I'll give her whatever she wants and I think she realizes that if she does pace she'll get what she wants.

     

      Would it be possible to crate her at night with something to chew on like a stuffed Kong, or confine her to one room, maybe using a gate? Also, is she strong enough to be walked? A little exercise may help her rest better at night. I know someone who has a blind dog and walks her.

     

    daisyprincess
    My thinking is she's 14 give her what she wants but sometimes it's like ok enough of the pacing at 4 in the morning.

       I understand how you feel, but giving her everything she wants may not be what's best for her, especially if it's hurting your relationship with her.

     

    daisyprincess
    I guess last night I just got my feelings hurt ( stupid me ).

     

     Please don't beat yourself up; to have a dog for 14 years is a testament to the wonderful care you've given her;(((hugs)))

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     I think others have suggested it as well....I'd get some bloodwork done. That pacing sounds very possibly like a thyroid issue, as I've seen it in one of our dogs. Not meaning to scare you but it turned out she had thyroid cancer. That doesn't necessarily mean that will be the case with Daisy but she may be having some thyroid issues going on and need some medication to adjust it. I'd really want to rule that out, cause if that is the case she just can't help herself. Our girl, by the way, is doing fine and that was 1 and 1/2 years ago. She did need to have surgery and radiation treatments.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm echoing it--don't beat yourself up.

    Leashing is a good idea. A harness rather than just her collar might help her feel more secure--but it might not, too. And, you hit on a really important point--you are giving her some verbal cues about what is coming next. Excellent! As you said, you're not sure you told her what you were going to do (pick her up), so she didn't know what was happening. To me, this really shows that the verbal cues are important and she understands them. Keep doing that! You knew to do it instinctively.

    Gating a room with a blind dog (esp. if she has no vision) and esp. if the gate will be up sometimes and not up others will be complicated. If she runs into it and it falls (or she falls), it could be very scary (and possibly dangerous) for her. It might be needed, but it will take a lot of work.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    My opinion is this has nothing to do with her being blind or the pacing.  And, everything to do with that she is getting a little spoiled and when you suddenly wanted her to do something she didn't want to do she challenged you a little bit.  I'd say less loving and more giving her clear directions on what you need her to do.  And, if she is going to get something she wants a simple sit before she gets it would help her attitude a bit. 

    Now, as for the pacing if you wanted to get that checked out I would totally get it.  But, to run her to the vet for bloodwork based on this incident I don't really think its necessary.  It wasn't like she suddenly just snapped for no reason at all.  Now, if it continues or escalates then yes. 

    I've been thru this myself with Willow. She got pretty sick and I spoiled her.  I thought the same way you do, she's older, she's sick, etc let her have whatever. She ended up becoming a real brat for awhile and it took some time to get back to where she had started. 

    I'm glad you weren't seriously hurt!

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    You say she is getting her days and nights mixed up? Does she get enough activity during the day? If I were you, I would provide her with plenty of mental and physical exercise during the day so she is actually tired at bedtime. Hide treats around the room that she can sniff out, give her treat dispensing toys and puzzles, give her something "to do" using her nose and ears since she can't see.  I would imagine that being an elderly, blind dog she probably does a lot of napping and laying around which just makes her restless at night.  And I think crating at night is a good idea too.

    And the snappiness can be a symptom of pain that accompanies aging. A lot of old dogs with arthritis will snap when their sore joints hurt. They have no other way of communicating the pain they feel when they are being picked up.

    • Gold Top Dog

    VERY OFTEN older dogs "get their days and nights mixed up" -- just like human senior citizens -- what has been a life habit (maybe getting up at 6 and being in bed by 9 or 10) SUDDDENLY (altho it's not *really* so sudden)  are going to bed almost right after supper and they are up at 3 or 4 a.m.

    They get tired earlier -- but then after they sleep earlier then suddenly they are up and can't get back to sleep at 4 a.m.

    Pacing can be a sign of pain, yes their thyroid balance can change BIG time in the senior years (and they can actually go hyPER thyroid -- which as Grab says -- that might honestly be a darned good thing to check (among others) with the vet.  Hypothyroid is low thyroid.  Hyperthyroid is too HIGH -- and that is the dangerous one.  It can actually give them high blood pressure.

    But a lot of times "pacing" is an old dog thing.  But there are also things they can do for her.  My holistic vet used to have an herb mix she gave to Foxy the MOstlie Sheltie (who was King of the "Old Man Wanderings" in the middle of the night)

    • Gold Top Dog

     I have to say that I'm with Callie on this one, having owned my fair share of old dogs.  Pacing can be due to the blindness, or to cognitive dysfunction, or to anxiety.  Defensive biting can be a result of pain, or as Callie pointed out, of being already afraid of something and being pushed in its direction.  Try pairing food with snapping that leash on.  And, don't just walk up and snap it on;-)  If your dog can still hear, try giving her a tidbit and saying a cue, such as "leash" as you snap it on.  The more you can make your movements and actions predictable to the dog, the less she will feel anxious about them.  To help her, you do have to think like she might be thinking, and take the personal out of it.  If she didn't get a good whiff of you before you attempted to pick her up, you might as well have been an alien - after all, she can't see you!  There's a great book here on living with blind dogs: http://www.petcarebooks.com/books/living_blind.htm

    Check this site out, too: http://www.blinddogs.com/


    • Gold Top Dog

     I think as humans we often tend to humanize when it comes to actions like bites.  It can feel like such a betrayal of trust.  We can't help but think, hey, I would never bite/hit you.  Why did you do that, do you hate me?  We can stick it on the same level as if a trusted human family member hit us.  I think it is important to remember however that biting, especially more of a back off snap is not an uncommon occurrence in dog society.  If you had been another dog chances are you wouldn't have even been nicked since you would have some fur and tougher skin to soften the blow.  On another note, if she had been another human I doubt you would have been so quick to try to get her to move by nudging her with your foot or turn so quickly to forcefully lift her somewhere she didn't want to go.  It is a double standard, and all of us are guilty of doing it at some point or another.

    With any animal, I also think it is important to listen to them.  She may not be able to speak English but she told you in a clear voice, I am not in a good place right now.  She clearly growled and that should have alerted you that you needed to stop, and really think of how to approach things.  Perhaps it is just my experience with more primitive critters, but I know if one of my mantises throws up a threat pose the last thing I'm going to do is reach down and try to grab them.  Instead, I focus on getting them to relax back down before continuing with what I was trying to accomplish.

    She is an old gal, blind, and way past the point of acting out because she wants to act out.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Krissim Klaw

     I think as humans we often tend to humanize when it comes to actions like bites.  It can feel like such a betrayal of trust.  We can't help but think, hey, I would never bite/hit you.  Why did you do that, do you hate me?  We can stick it on the same level as if a trusted human family member hit us.  I think it is important to remember however that biting, especially more of a back off snap is not an uncommon occurrence in dog society.  If you had been another dog chances are you wouldn't have even been nicked since you would have some fur and tougher skin to soften the blow.  On another note, if she had been another human I doubt you would have been so quick to try to get her to move by nudging her with your foot or turn so quickly to forcefully lift her somewhere she didn't want to go.  It is a double standard, and all of us are guilty of doing it at some point or another.

    With any animal, I also think it is important to listen to them.  She may not be able to speak English but she told you in a clear voice, I am not in a good place right now.  She clearly growled and that should have alerted you that you needed to stop, and really think of how to approach things.  Perhaps it is just my experience with more primitive critters, but I know if one of my mantises throws up a threat pose the last thing I'm going to do is reach down and try to grab them.  Instead, I focus on getting them to relax back down before continuing with what I was trying to accomplish.

    She is an old gal, blind, and way past the point of acting out because she wants to act out.

    Totally agree with this, and with Callie. What Daisy did sounds exactly like what Rascal would do in that position. If he is nervous, uncomfortable, stressed, or in pain, if you physically try to get him to move, he will cower, freeze, and then growl. In his mind, that is 3 warnings - if you continue to approach him, he will bite. (And I totally understand, I get my feelings hurt too! Even though I know better!)

    I strongly believe that the WORST thing you can do with an animal is to make them feel "cornered." You always, always, always have to give them an option to "do the right thing" (not bite), because if they feel threatened, they're going to do *something.* You want the "something" to be "not-bite," so you have to give them other options of things to do, know what I mean?

    If something like that happens again, try *asking* Daisy to move, instead of forcing her. With a happy, cheerful voice, ask her to "come," or ask her if she wants a cookie, or whatever you need to do to make her 1) feel like you're not a threat, 2) get her listening to you (you know how when you're really upset you don't really listen to people very well? I think dogs are the same), 3) get her to do what you want, because she wants to do it.

    Because you've said she is blind, do you do much work with voice commands? I think that would be very, very helpful for you. I very rarely physically touch Rascal, both because of his arthritis and because he tends to get frightened/threatened easily - instead, I direct him places with voice commands.

    For example, if Rascal is somewhere and I need him to move, I can say, "Scoot! C'mon! Get outta here!" and he knows that all three of those mean he needs to get out of the way. If I'm in a big hurry for some emergency or something, I can move him physically (like by brushing him out of the way with my feet) but I'm also saying, "Scoot! Get outta here!" and he's less frightened, because he knows what's going on, and he knows what he's supposed to do. If I just push him, without saying anything, 9 times out of 10 he's going to get startled/scared and bite me. And Rascal is only 7 years old, and can see very well! I would imagine the world would be even scarier for a dog that can't see what's happening in the world around them.