Dog Community

Introducing Treats/Rewards?

Posted : 3/3/2007 8:51:10 PM

I don't currently have a dog, but I often enjoy working with my uncle's dog when we are together. Della is a two year old chocolate lab. She is a true working dog. She is not house-broken and is basically ignored by my uncle's family. He takes her for a 5 mile run every morning and uses her for companionship when he's working in the woods and also for duck hunting. She retrieves very well (well, not as "soft" as she should be) and is an excellent swimmer. However, she has many issues that my uncle has thus far failed to address. Basically, she acts like a puppy because she's never been properly trained what is not acceptable. For example, at the cottage Della is kept outside on a long lead. When she sees you approaching she will crouch down and wag her tail. As soon as you are about 6 feet away, she starts barking and lunging. She will lunge at you and snap at your arms and hands or anything you are carrying. She knows sit, stay, come, fetch, kennel, heel, and load (get in the car), but she doesn't listen when you are approaching her. Basically, to get her collar and lead on you have to wrestle her and are lucky if you come out without any hard snaps or nips. She also lunches and snaps at her "duck" buoy if you are holding it, instead of properly waiting for you to tell her what to do.

My sis and I would like to try rewarding her when she does the commands she knows, but Della has never had a treat in her life and we don't know how to introduce this without her going absolutely crazy. I fear that she will figure out I have treats in my pocket and then keep right on lunging and snapping at my pockets and hands. She just doesn't listen, and she's so big and strong it's very tiresome trying to get her to do the simplest of things. If she gets away from you, she just runs everywhere and will actually charge people and lunge at them. When she gets in this state, it's basically impossible to get her to focus. Once she is on her lead walking, she does good (she knows "heel" pretty well now, thanks to one of those prong collars my uncle uses) and once she has started her routine of waiting for the "duck" to be thrown and then being told to fetch, she is great. It's the things like getting her on her collar and then getting her back off onto her yard lead that she won't do. Most of our relatives are afraid of her and won't go near her b/c of the lunging.

I really think this is my uncle's fault since he is a very high strung person and the dog just feeds off of his personality. He's not mean at all and she listens to him ten times better than I, but instead of rewarding her, he's always shouting "DELLA COME, DELLA OFF!, DELLA NO!!!!" and she just gets more hyper. I don't think she really knows what he wants.

Xebby

Posted : 3/3/2007 9:09:44 PM

Well first off she is still a puppy. Lab will be puppies for at least 3 years to 5 years.

It seems like clicker training would help a whole lot but treats do work great as long as you don't over treat the dog. Being your Uncles dog it might be harder for you to do the training, once you start it the owner should be willing to continue whatever training method you use. I think in this case you should have a talk with your uncle and see if he's willing to work with his dog if you help him. Also keeping the dog out on a lead all day will only increases the problems she has and may be why she acts the way she does. Not being the owner you can only suggest so much but with a dog like this it requires constant training for the entire life of the dog.

Liesje

Posted : 3/3/2007 9:54:26 PM

I think he might be willing to continue if he sees progress. For example, he always had Della retrieve from shore because she was too scared to jump off the dock. I thought it would be fun for her to jump off the dock and got her to do it by bouncing her duck off the end of the dock. In just half an hour, she went from being scared to this:

My uncle thought it was cool and now does the same thing with her:

When they went on sabbatical to Alaska, my brother took the dog (b/c he hunts) and she really calmed down. My uncle was so impressed with her improvement, he offered to give her to us. We declined because my bro moved to New Orleans and no one else would take her hunting.

At home, she is kept in a large dog run out back. At the cottage, we don't have a dog run and since she is not house-trained she can't be kept indoors, thus the tie-out. I think at night she goes in her crate in my uncle's jeep. Fortunately, she is one of those dogs that LOVES her crate and being in the back of the jeep.

He's pretty high strung himself and is kind of cynical and pessimistic so I think he tends to underestimate the dog. His first lab he put down because once my cousin was born, the dog attacked her twice (as a toddler). His second lab was great for the purposes she served, but ended up being VERY aggressive in guarding her crate and dog run. If anyone but my uncle touched the crate, she'd go crazy.

Xebby

Posted : 3/4/2007 3:41:44 PM

It sounds like this dog is cared for but lacks some basic training that she would really benefit from. I think the first thing she really needs to learn is to be housebroken. This will help so much and once she becomes included with the family inside and out then things will be a little easier to train her to do other things.

If possible I would suggest taking her to an obedience trainer to have a trainer work with both dog in owner. To train a dog correctly the owner must be trained how to train the dog.

As for using treat, I find that for my dog treats are the most effective for my method of training. For other dogs treats may not work as well, it just depends on the dog. For training purposes I like to use soft treats that can be consumed quickly so there is no waiting time in between one skill and the next. I like to use Natural Balance rolls cut up into pieces. To treat a dog you do not want to treat every single time the dog does something, make it random, like treat every other time then every third time. You do not want the dog to expect a treat every time it does something but you want to still keep it's attention so it will do what you want.

I do not like my dog grabbing treats out of my hands when I'm not ready to give it to her so I do this:
Do not let the dog take a treat unless you give it to the dog. It should not grab it out of you hand unless you are ready to give it to the dog. The way to practice this is hold the treat up to the dog, if the dog lunges for it then pull it away out of the dog's reach. When you are ready to give the dog a treat say a word that means it's ok to eat the treat, any word is fine as long as it's constant. For me I use "spicy" as my treat word. When you say the word allow the dog to eat the treat. Try saying other words and do not let her eat it unless you only say the treat word. This should help teach the dog not to lunge for treats, lunging can also lead to biting and you do not want the dog to bite the hand that is holding the treats.

mudpuppy

Posted : 3/5/2007 10:38:58 AM

For example, at the cottage Della is kept outside on a long lead. When she sees you approaching she will crouch down and wag her tail. As soon as you are about 6 feet away, she starts barking and lunging. She will lunge at you and snap at your arms and hands or anything you are carrying.

for this particular problem, I suggest the following procedure. Approach, holding a treat, and while you are what, eight feet away, while she is still calm, toss her a treat. Very slowly approach another foot, and if still calm, toss treat. And repeat. She gets rewarded for being calm.
Another option, if she's good with sit, is to ask her to sit as you approach. Dogs who are sitting can't be lunging at you.
She clearly needs work on the recall, I suggest working with her on a long line for that one.

This dog's life sounds very unsatisfactory for the dog, and I hope you can help her and perhaps convince her owner to incorporate her into his family.

Liesje

Posted : 3/5/2007 3:37:30 PM

Thanks, I will try all these suggestions next time we are together.

Unfortunately, this dog will never be a family dog. My aunt hates pets (well, not *hates*, but really does not like) and is allergic. Since my uncle has always been a hunter and a DNR officer, he likes to keep a dog work work and hunting. My aunt does not even acknowledge the dog, which I guess maybe is better so that the dog doesn't get any confusing signals. She will listen to my uncle, but only if he shouts his command several times. Unless she were to calm down to about 1/100000 of the way she is now, I can't ever see my aunt even considering allowing her in the home, especially after the first dog attacked my cousin twice. I think Della would tear the place apart the second she felt confined. I took her into my house once and her tail was between her legs and she got really nervous, she couldn't even walk on the floor properly. Also, my uncle is rarely home, usually just at night to sleep and maybe one day a month, so she actually gets far more interaction being a working dog than being left home alone all day (my aunt is a college professor in my city which is 45 mins from their house).

I don't know much about training a dog that's already poorly trained, but would some kind of muzzle help at all? When I say she lunges and snaps, I mean, she does this EVERY time someone approaches her and will not hold her sit unless you are specifically down on the dock showing her you are going to throw the duck. Everyone who's tried to work with her has been bit in the hands, legs, and arms many many times. I'm not afraid of her and I know she's not aggressive, but honestly even at this point I would not dare approach her with a treat without my leather gloves on.

Xebby

Posted : 3/5/2007 6:10:17 PM

I would not hesitate to use a muzzle on a dog that shows any kind of agression, even if it's not towards you. When I started training my dog I used a muzzle and it really helped calm her so that I could work with her. Most muzzle allow dogs to drink and also eat small treats. I no longer need to use a muzzle but I still keep it in my pocket just in case I need it while out with her. In many cases the muzzle not only protects others but also helps to

rotect the dog as well.

It's too bad that the dog can not be included with the family because that would make it much easyer to train and make her an overall better dog. It does sound like she can be a wonderful companion dog if given the opertunity to be more socalized. With this situation there is only so much you can do. A dog that is kepted like this will develop behavors that most owners do not ejoy. This could also be why the last dogs he had also failed to be good pets and became agressive. I only feel that any dog in this situation would turn out like her. I really do wish you the best of luck in training and hope that you can at the very lest help her from becoming any more destructive.

Liesje

Posted : 3/5/2007 9:09:24 PM

Thanks. I've never seen a muzzle used so I wasn't sure if it's considered cruel or not. I've seen some that seem looser or smaller that seem like it would help us at least elimintate the constant snapping and allow US to focus. She snaps at you even if you have her in a sit right next to you, like it's the only way she knows how to get your attention (so she thinks).

I too agree that she's merely a product of her environment. My sis and I enjoy trying to train her because it seems that it would make HER happier and less hyper because of the mixed signals and confusion about how she's expected to behave. She does pick up on things very quickly, but she can be stubborn and just refuse to follow through. My uncle got her walking on a leash (a miracle!) after using one of those poke collars for her heel command. Now, she can actually go for a walk and enjoy it without straining so much she pukes (before, she was only used to running 5 miles and thought leash = RUN). She enjoys working so much, I'm sure she'd LIKE to do her SIT and STAY, etc, but it's getting past her initial hyperness and all the charging, snapping, and lunging.

mudpuppy

Posted : 3/6/2007 10:36:14 AM

this charging, snapping, lunging, hyperness are all symptoms of a very frustrated dog who doesn't know how to control herself. So they should get better if you continue to work with her! ask for baby steps at first and gradually ask for more. You might want to try exercising her BEFORE you work on more difficult exercises like stay.