Play or aggression?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Play or aggression?

    Okay, so this post is more to vent, but any suggestions are welcome.  I have a 15 month old malamute named Hugo, and I've posted about this issue before, but it's reared its ugly head lately, and I'm getting pretty frustrated.  So, basically, the issue is that when I play in our backyard with Hugo, the play often turns extremely rough, almost to the point of aggression.  For instance, I was back there with him today playing fetch (this usually happens when we're playing fetch, but not all the time), and after about 15 minutes, he lost all interest in his tennis ball and charged at me, jumped on me and was seemingly trying to bit my arms and hands.  He barks while he does this, and it doesnt sound like his normal play growl or anything -- it almost sounds aggressive.  The weird thing is that he is SUCH a sweet dog -- never been dog or people agressive, he's a terrible guard dog, and has never had any problems with anyone.  I've tried telling him no, leave it, I'll get down on his level and speak really softly to him, I'll try to ignore him by turning my back... but nothing really seems to work.  UGH!  Should I just stop playing in the backyard with him altogether?  What do you guys think might be causing this?  HELP!

    • Gold Top Dog

    This is a common problem with dogs of this age, and it usually stems from a failure to show the dog, early on, that the human is in charge of all the dog's resources.  Often, these are the dogs that get petted when they nudge you, or get the ball thrown because they drop it at your feet, and if you don't throw it, they push it at you or drop it on your lap, or bark.  Sometimes, they show aggression to one family member and not others. 

    Getting down to his level and speaking softly may seem like "appeasement" to him, which would mean that you were ceding authority to him in whatever situation you were just in.  Probably as bad an idea as trying to physically correct him, which might lead to an escalation.  Sweet, in other circumstances, does not imply sweet in every circumstance.  Dogs live contextual lives;-)  They also normally play roughly with other dogs - and, if you play roughly with puppies they can grow up to be very rough adults.  So, if you made that mistake, you'll need to correct it.

    My suggestion would be to take this dog to a positive, or clicker based, training class that can help you get the sequence of training down correctly.  Once you understand how dogs learn and how to train a new behavior, you can use those behaviors to have your dog "ask permission" before he gets the ball thrown, and you can make him understand that it is HIS behavior that stops the game if he decides to be a jerk and bite your arm.  For now, I would not play games with this dog that make him aggressive or obnoxious.  Instead, you can use other forms of exercise, plus some interactive toys or food puzzles to give him some mental, as well as physical, exercise.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks for the advice!  He actually was clicker trained from the day we got him, and he has to ask for permission for almost everything (sit before he eats, waits at the door before we go out for a walk, etc.).  Would you suggest bringing this to playtime as well?  Possibly making him sit before the ball is thrown, and immediately walk away if the biting starts?  I guess my concern is that I've tried some of these things before (mostly leaving the backyard immediately when the aggression starts), but the behavior seems to re-occur.  Maybe we should just stick to running on the trail...

    • Gold Top Dog

    MalOwner
    and after about 15 minutes, he lost all interest in his tennis ball and charged at me, jumped on me and was seemingly trying to bit my arms and hands.  He barks while he does this, and it doesnt sound like his normal play growl or anything -- it almost sounds aggressive.

     

    Not aggressive whatsoever. You are more "interesting" than a tennis ball. For Mals the tennis balls dont "wrestle" back at them and thats what he wants. Mals like to play "pushy" games. Once he realizes you dont really want to play that type of game with him is when he barks and makes that low growl. He is protesting for not being playful back but he is not being aggressive. I dont blame you for not wanting to play because it can be painful.

    You can do 2 things, get something more interesting than you to play with him like a flirt pole:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbHtPAkR05A

    Or get a pair of gloves, sit down (so he does not jump on you) and play with him in a painless way:

    http://www.chillingtontoolsonline.co.uk/images/products/large/Gardening-Gloves.jpg

    I do both with Chuck and i dont have any problem, he does not get mouthy if i have the gloves off  and I can wrestle safely with him, after all thats how Mals play with each other:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28mA6fJmRT4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvB4J0J7zwI

    • Gold Top Dog

    I have to stop her before she gets to a certain point because if I don't she will become very rough, growling, biting, etc.  It's not aggression like she's trying to hurt to me.  But, playing very inappropriately.  For example, she likes to zoom around in open spaces outside.  But, I have to stop her before she gets to the point where the zooming around becomes zooming at me and jumping up biting my sleeves, growling, etc.  It happened once very badly on a hiking trail where she just got way out of control and she ended up breaking skin.  I was enjoying watching her and didn't stop her in time.  You should of seen what a sight that was.  People didn't understand what was going on and I could hear, "see those chows, you can't trust them." 

    When she was much younger she used to jump up, bite the leash and she had broken thru several of them in that same state. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    MalOwner

    Thanks for the advice!  He actually was clicker trained from the day we got him, and he has to ask for permission for almost everything (sit before he eats, waits at the door before we go out for a walk, etc.).  Would you suggest bringing this to playtime as well?  Possibly making him sit before the ball is thrown, and immediately walk away if the biting starts?  I guess my concern is that I've tried some of these things before (mostly leaving the backyard immediately when the aggression starts), but the behavior seems to re-occur.  Maybe we should just stick to running on the trail...

     

    Absolutely you can bring it to play time.  

    Also, behaviors re-occur or continue because they are intermittently or regularly reinforced somehow.  So, as his trainer, you should be asking yourself, "What is my dog getting as a reinforcement when he does that behavior?"  If you can figure that out, and stop reinforcing  him, even accidentally, you have a better chance at extinguishing that behavior.  The flip side, however, is that he does need reinforcement for exhibiting behavior that you like;-)

    • Gold Top Dog

    MalOwner
    he has to ask for permission for almost everything (sit before he eats, waits at the door before we go out for a walk, etc.).  Would you suggest bringing this to playtime as well? 

    Absolutely!  He needs to understand that you rule everything.  All games are yours and he has the privaledge of playing with you...not the other way around.

    I use the flirt pole with Bruder because he is not a fetchy dog.  He loves it, and it wears him out sufficiently.  BUT, its my game.  He must first sit, then wait...look at me; then he is released to run and catch.  He knows the rules and routine now.  I don't even need to say the words now...he places himself in a sit and patiently waits for me to make the first move.  When he does this....big praise from me.

    Teach him "easy" too.  Bruder is a body slammer; and needed to be taught that this is not allowed.  He knows that "easy" means to slow it down.   Teach him "enough"  meaning the game is over. 

    At 15 months old...he is too big to be in charge...so you should turn this around quickly.  This is the age where he will test and try to be top dog (over you)....don't let that happen.  Good luck and keep us posted.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks everyone for the suggestions!  The flirt pole sounds like a great idea -- I think that will interest him much more than fetch (he's not a retriever!), and would definitely wear him out.  I'll keep you posted on how the training/play works.  Hopefully he'll get the message that I'm the top dog in the backyard -- not just in the house!

    • Gold Top Dog

     If he's not "fetchy" and doesn't care for the flirt pole (Some dogs look at you as if to say "I am NOT a cat, thanks.";) you can always try this:

    http://www.activedogtoys.com/bubble_machine.html

    Chicken flavored bubbles....

    Also, instead of feeding the dog from a bowl, hide his kibble all over the place and make him "hunt" for it.  Most dogs love the hunting game.  Or, better yet, use his dinner as training treats and really make him work for it.  Leadership is about controlling the dog's resources, not so much about physically controlling the dog.