Dunbar Makes the Case...

I think I fall into the trap of too much luring.  I use it in the very beginning to teach most things (front recall, finishes, tight pivots...).  I think free shaping is best but takes time and if the skill is not very complex (like a right finish), it's pretty effective to lure it a few times and the dog basically has it.  But I think for behaviors we want a dog to sustain - like competitive heeling or loose leash walking - luring can be the downfall.  I can be hard to tell if the dog really *knows* the behavior or only knows it with the lure present.  The lure can be faded but right now I'm taking a few steps back with one of my dogs, too much luring on my part and I think fading will be more work and cause more anxiety to the dog than taking a few steps back and starting over and getting the focus back where it should be.  I want the dog to work with me and not view me as an obstacle between him and the reward.  I see that in my own training and others, the handler is not really part of the picture other than the thing that holds the lure/reward.

I lure occasionally, but I tend to fade the lure pretty immediately.  Luring too much can easily have the unintended consequence of making the dog food dependent, or as you put it, it's hard to know if they know the behavior or only know it with food present.  Starting over is always ok, especially since you can just teach a new cue, and not have to worry about the old one.  I do that with some people who have poisoned the heel cue - just have them teach the behavior, but name it "fuss" or "au pied" or something else. 

 I tend to try not to prompt if I can get the behavior without it, at least this time around with Luke. I can see how for some people, they aren't going to have the skill to shape, and watch behavior, know when to increase their criteria, etc. I can imagine that during the process of learning how to shape, people may lose the behavior due upping criteria to soon, or may get stuck due to failure to increase criteria soon enough. I mean, the average owner I would venture to guess can get by perfectly fine if the dog is prompt dependent on a gestural prompt, as long as they don't always need to carry food. I have do a lot of targeting work with Luke. So, I can often skip the food, and go straight to the next step. 

I learned from Fergie that it's useful for a dog to be able to answer both a gestural cue and a verbal one (of course, once the dog goes deaf *and* blind, perhaps it would be good to have a scent cue).  And, I learned from Sioux that she prefers to be addressed by name, thanks, before her cues, so that she won't be "wrong" and mistakenly answer for some other dog lol.  (Aussies hate to be wrong.)  I learned from Sequoyah that it's fun to teach your dog to lip read:-)))  And, I learned from all of them that it's a real kick to carry food around (like Cheerios, so you don't stink and mess up your pockets with meat grease), because then you can capture all the cute things they do and put them on cue.  (Example: Sequoyah spreads her legs when I say, "Are you a hussy?";)  I really think it's all about relationship and fun with dogs.  If the owners are having fun, and, as you say, the dog is doing the basic things they ask, then I think I've done my job.  If they want to go further, refinements are always possible...

spiritdogs

I learned from Fergie that it's useful for a dog to be able to answer both a gestural cue and a verbal one (of course, once the dog goes deaf *and* blind, perhaps it would be good to have a scent cue).  And, I learned from Sioux that she prefers to be addressed by name, thanks, before her cues, so that she won't be "wrong" and mistakenly answer for some other dog lol.  (Aussies hate to be wrong.)  I learned from Sequoyah that it's fun to teach your dog to lip read:-)))  And, I learned from all of them that it's a real kick to carry food around (like Cheerios, so you don't stink and mess up your pockets with meat grease), because then you can capture all the cute things they do and put them on cue.  (Example: Sequoyah spreads her legs when I say, "Are you a hussy?";)  I really think it's all about relationship and fun with dogs.  If the owners are having fun, and, as you say, the dog is doing the basic things they ask, then I think I've done my job.  If they want to go further, refinements are always possible...

Complete agreement with everything you said there. I need to grab my treat pouch back, or buy a new one, and walk around like a dork with a treat pouch so I can get all sorts to behaviors. 

 Yeah, we could be in the doggy dork club together. 

spiritdogs

 Yeah, we could be in the doggy dork club together. 

Why do I feel like this is something I should put in my sig line?

spiritdogs

..for reward based training in the real world.  http://dogtime.com/dog-training-food-lure-reward-dunbar.html 

Ian Dunbar is not a clicker trainer.  As you will see by this article, he is a lure/reward trainer.  I have found that many pet owners are unwilling to try clicker training at first because they can't seem to handle leash, clicker, food, dog, all at the same time.

Ian Dunbar is also one of the wisest funniest dog trainer presenters that i have seen . But i don't do a whole lot of lure training. I would feel naked without my clicker, and i like to have toys everywhere. I do use lure to get heeling position, but yo yo with toys so as to keep that energetic happy heeling action. That is about it when it comes to luring for me.

 The nice bit about R+ training is that we can all be different and our dogs don't get to suffer.