Dakota has clostridium infection - UPDATE: FINAL RESULTS IS HOOKWORM!!

Found these:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2239&S=1

And, this Canadian study - bacterial evaluation of raw diets: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1140397

An over population of clostridium would not be due to what he eats. However, the cause could be a digestive system that is poorly equipped to handle bad bugs. You can assist things by trying to raise his probiotic levels, either with regular use of a high quality supplement (forget the yogurt, use a concentrate formulated for people), or with the use of prebiotic supplements. Inulin is a good prebiotic, as is jicama, a root vegetable. Orijen, I think, has inulin and a couple other prebiotic herbs in it.

If that doesn't fix it, you may have to be resigned to offering him only cooked food, which won't challenge his immune system. Cooking for one little dog wouldn't be hard - if I had only Zhi to feed and had to cook, I'd just crockpot for her. Again, it's not that raw food is bad, it's just that your little dog might not have the wherewithal to handle it. He'll be fine. Good luck! 

Brookcove....you're feeding Orijen, IIRC...what do you think of the overall quality?

I do think Dakota will have to switch back to cooked, as he is doing 100% better; and if memory serves, he was doing better when the meat was cooked. Which is a bummer, cause everything gives you the impression that raw meat is sooo highly superior to cooked meat.

But....not at the risk of causing issues.

Cooking for him is no biggy. I may have to put the big-guy back on dry food for a while, budget's getting really tight, and I still can't find steady sources of affordable RBM's for him, aside from leg-quarters.

Think of it like milk. Milk's great for most people. Some people are lactose intolerant and can't drink milk without taking a pill that gives them what they need. Others are outright allergic to it. Milk is still healthy, but not for everybody.

I like Orijen so far. It's a good, though pricey, alternative to the cooked part of our diets. Still, I can't wait until school's out and I can go back to fixing their food.  

Do you teach school?

More then half of River's diet will still be raw; just thinking about Orijen while we're on vacation and/or a few meals out of a week to help offset costs.

brookcove

An over population of clostridium would not be due to what he eats

I'm not saying that clostridium is due to what this dog has eaten, but you cannot rule it out with impunity.  I am not opposed to raw feeding, but I think that you are taking a risk by doing it, not because it's inherently bad (and it may be good), but because some dogs will be affected by bacteria that would not necessarily affect another dog with a different constitution.  The question is, how do you know which dogs, and what will the end result be? 

Most dogs have clostridium-related bacteria in their digestive tract, the majority of which don't ever have any problems.  However, when an excess of enterotoxins like salmonella or e. coli are exposed to the dogs own bacterial "supply," it causes the bacteria to become active/irritated and destructive in return (causing bloody, mucousy, or chronic diarrhea).  Since dogs that are fed a raw diet almost always shed salmonella in their stool (as shown by recent study I'm sure everyone has seen), I would guess the over-exposure would cause a problem.  Pure speculation though...

spiritdogs

but because some dogs will be affected by bacteria that would not necessarily affect another dog with a different constitution.  The question is, how do you know which dogs, and what will the end result be? 

Very true. I do feel....now... that I'm playing rush-n-rulett sorta speak. It would help greatly if I could find a true co-op source of meats that I trusted, but it seems that Colorado is not the best place to opt for homecooking let alone raw diets in terms of finding meat at an affordable price.

I like to feed Dakota pre-made raw diets; i.e. Bravo, Stella & Chewies (of which he did GREAT on), and Primal cause he's such a small dog and it's affordable for him, cause he can't have RMB's due to his constant issue with choking. 

I think the Stella's was ok, I honestly feel the issue came in with the Bravo; however, one is taking a chance simply just with feeding dogs anymore it appears. I mean, you can't always trust dry dog food to not have contaminants either, that's the freaky thing when some automatically think that the raw diet has substantial amounts of bacteria, however, what's hiding in the dry dog food??

Just a tad frustrated....don't mind me...just blowing off frustration....as you think you're on a roll with everyone doing good, and then boom, there goes $200 for a vet bill due to possibly anything that set his system off.

I do know this bacteria IS part of the canine system, just would like to know what set it off .....for sure. So I don't make the same mistake...this is one little guy that's already been through enough in his 4-5 short years of life, thus far.

For now, the permanent diet for this little guy is going back to cooked meats, with an abundance of veggies...he seems to have a high need for fiber.

Thanks for listening to me ramble 

Don;t beat yourself up about it.  I know a dog that had the same clostridium infection and never ate anything other than kibble her whole life.  I think Callie mentioned in your other thread that sometimes these things just happen---could be something they picked up outside, etc...

The best thing you can do is to keep the gut populated with friendly bacteria, so a good probiotic/prebiotic is essential

Yeah, we're gonna start on a probiotic here in a few days...soon as I can get over to Vitamin Cottage.

I had a dog years ago that had the same thing happen to her; yes, the only thing she ever ate was dry dog food...so who knows.

I would not be surprized if I wasn't even the one who brought it home on my work boots. I do locates for underground electric lines, gas pipes, etc. I'm constantly walking through people's back yards, horse corrals, cow fields, etc. I typically leave my boots in the garage, but sometimes when leaving in the morning, you forget something in the house and don't care to take your boots off all over again.

My son had clostridium overgrowth as an infant. I can assure you he never ate raw meat (we didn't feed raw to the dogs then either). The underlying problem wasn't with what he ate, but rather with his immune system.

Yes, it's a risk, but then again some dogs are allergic to eggs, some to chicken, some to lamb, and some are lactose intolerant. The list goes on and on. Any of these could trigger a serious illness (and indeed a bout with some type of inflammatory problem). You'd just never know. All you can do is feed the way you feel is best and if it doesn't work out for some reason, don't beat yourself up. But don't continue to try to "make it work" thinking there's some inherent "Better" way to feed versus another.  

Brookcove...

I *do* understand that it's his immune system over-reacting, he could've eatin a peice of bread and had the same reaction....I do understand that. For all I know, this flare up could've been the result of stress alone, may not have had anything to do with type of food in general.

I have no fear continuing to feed raw to my other 2 guys; and perhaps I can return to raw for this little guy as well, but I don't want to jump the gun either.

I'm caught between a rock and hard place with this little guy though, because although I'm in charge of his diet and what he eats overall, Dakota is the son sorta-speak, that my parents never had....they are head over heels in love with him. My Mom is against the raw idea, though she agreed to it, and feeds him what I gather up; my Dad doesn't care as long as he gets fed a healthy ration and it agrees with him.

We all live on the same property and I feed Dakota along with my 2; my parents completely understand too, that this could've been the result of anything.

I just don't know if I should return him back to what has been his normal diet; i.e. raw meat/veggies, etc, or if I should return him to cooked meat. I will stay with cooked meat temp for a while, with probiotics and slowly wean him back onto raw and see how he does.

I would not ever put this dog back on raw again. You've tried it, it didn't work. He'll get just as much out of a diet made with fresh cooked ingredients as the others do from raw, because it's more suitable for him.

I don't feed any of my dogs the same as the others. One dog is on all cooked (fish-based). What's most important is that they are eating what is healthiest for all of them.