Agility - What methods do you follow?

 I don't know any classes here that teach agility the way you are describing. I think it is great to spend time on foundation stuff but the Intro Agility classes that I have seen and been in are for introducing the dogs to the obstacles. We actually did far more foundation work in agility class when I took my first class 12+ years ago then I have seen done in classes recently. These are competition classes taught by clubs and the dogs do go on to earn titles, some go on to be pretty competive. It isn't right or wrong, just different and IME the norm for classes.

  I've debated though as to if I will take any more entry level agility classes with my own dogs for a few reasons. The biggest reason is that I have a rather intense breed that is prone to having on leash snarkiness issues. In almost every entry level class I have been in over the past five or so years, there are problems with dogs who get loose, have no recall and pester the other dogs. Some of my dogs don't have the tendency towards leash related aggression so the loose dog problem is just an annoyance. For the ones who do have the tendency, this scenerio quickly brings it out in them - even if they never showed the problem before. Then I have to go through training through the leash issue with them, while trying to work them in class and try to protect them from the loose dogs. This makes the class no fun for either of us.

 There is screening to get into Intro but IMO the testing that is done doesn't show how the dog will react to being in an agility class environment. The dog can be well trained an responsive at the test or in obedience classes but still become overstimulated in agility class. I would like to see a stricter test to get into Intro and a Foundation class for people who are interested in agility but not prepared for it.

 The other issue I have had with entry level classes is that I may want to teach things differently from what the class is doing. For some stuff, I can just sit out but other stuff it is harder to do that. I also don't like that often for Intro work, it is progressive each lesson so everyone moves forward on the lessons each week - ready or not.

I've done and watched a lot of agility classes at our club.  I think the main reason you see people leading the dog through courses and doing all the obstacles in novice is because most people that do agility (at least at my club) aren't thinking ahead to being super competitive and doing distance work, they see people running full courses and that's what they want.  They don't know enough to care about correct flatwork and handling techniques.  Most of them will never compete and don't have any interest in it.  Sort of like if you went to a beginner or puppy obedience class, you would NOT see what is being taught during the obediece phase at a Schutzhund or working dog club, you would simply see pet owners who want their dogs to be able to sit, down, and heel at the end of 8 weeks and don't care if they can't get a CD title.

I put Coke through beginner agility last summer and my purpose for doing so was simply as something for him to do and for us to practice more focus and self-control from him.  I never took him off lead and he HATED the chute so we don't even do that obstacle b/c my goal for him is not really doing agility, per se.

Kenya is far more advance than that and she has competed, but she also is a very difficult dog to motivate, she lacks drive, and she is very clingy.  So agility for her an I is simply for fun and exercise (for us both!).  Unless we are doing something like a pinwheel, I'm usually level with her if not ahead of her and in competition we do exclusively front crosses (though the trainer has us to blinds and rears in practice).  Luckily, when she gets to a competition she gets more "up" and runs much faster than on the home field in training so she has taken first places.

So, I would be one that does agility just for the sake of doing it.  My goals for my dogs are not winning agility competitions, it's just another enrichment activity for them, like going to the dog park, and a social activity for me b/c I like going out to the dog club regardless of what we are doing.

Interesting to read. Keep in mind I'm not attending a "class". I've attended (and still am) a series of seminars by a very fabulous, well-known trainer who is in it for the World's competition. She has done a lot of her work through Susan Garrett (one of the biggest agility names) and Greg Derrett (the same), and my goals are for competition, so perhaps that is where the difference lies - what a person's goals are.

I know for us, I chose Gaci for these seminars because of her confidence issues and her special needs. Now, the difference I have seen in her is nothing short of amazing, and it is the foundation work that has gotten her where she is now.

It has been the things like Susan Garrett's "Crate Games", the It's Yer Choice Games, the circle work, the confidence building exercies (Buja board, flat-teeter work, etc) that will prepare her for everything that is to come.

AgileGSD, it's interesting that you say you saw far more foundation work 12 years ago than now in classes. I find that an interesting point, and I wonder if a lot of foundation work has been put on a back burner in the rush to get the dogs out there on the obstacles. Because the obstacles are actually the easiest part to teach, it's the handling, the fine details (contacts), and the accuracy that is where most issues arise in a trial (for those interested in trialling).

Liesje, your agility class sounds a little more formal than most of what I have seen or I see here. The fact that you practice things like pinwheels, threadles, front/rear/blind crosses is something that is not even touched upon in many agility classes and I know people who don't even know what those terms are referring to!

Now that I've gotten the agility bug, and the dogs just love it, I am determined to get Gaci trialling, not for the "win" but, being one of those people who likes to prove others wrong, I have been told by many that Gaci would "never do these things because of her issues", and well, she's also proved them wrong already and has come so far I plan to go the distance with her. The way I'm teaching the new pup is the same - it's all foundation stuff, the pup won't probably even see obstacles until she's near a year of age. It's all about focus, handling, tug-work and drive-building.

I'm not picking at any given methods, so I hope it doesn't appear that way, I'm just interested in the different levels of training different classes/dogs go through, and whether they are for competition or non-competition level.

Kim_MacMillan

Liesje, your agility class sounds a little more formal than most of what I have seen or I see here. The fact that you practice things like pinwheels, threadles, front/rear/blind crosses is something that is not even touched upon in many agility classes and I know people who don't even know what those terms are referring to!

These things are introduced in the third of three classes our club offers.  The people in this class have competed or could (or will...).  In the Beginners class, basically you are just leading your dog on a leash over/through the obstacles.  Sometimes someone holds the leash and you call your dog through the tunnel or tire.  All the obstacles are done except teeter and weaves.  Each class you review the obstacles you learned the week before and then add three new, then the last few classes are just practicing them all and then doing a mini-course (on lead usually).  There are no tight angles, crosses, serpentine, pinwheel, etc.  In the Advance Beginner class, you add in the teeter, start on channel weaves, and your dog should be focused enough to work off leash.  In the Intermediate (the highest level) we work sequences such as a pinwheel, serpentine, or 2-3 obstacles where we need to practice the various crosses and we do full sets of weaves.

Actually, here is a promo video we did that shows what we do.  I consider our club's agility program to be very basic, but we are an all-breed, all-sport club and only our agility instructor is really competitive in agility.  We changed the name of the "Advanced" class to "Intermediate" b/c it's really not advanced stuff we are doing.  Unfortunately, the day we made the video it was insanely hot and humid so you can see Kenya and the other dogs moving like snails! (and our instructor insisted we all try rear crosses between the two jumps so we look like klutz's on the vid)

http://www.vimeo.com/1309321

Okay, I'm starting to develop a better understanding. So, in any of those earlier classes, is there any real emphasis on handling techniques and how to work distance? Teaching a Go Out, handling from different sides, or any focus work? It just seems to me that it's teaching the dog to work within 2-5 feet of you, making it a routine for what, 12 weeks or more, and then later suddenly expecting them to begin working at a distance. To me that would make it harder for the dog to learn to work away from you. Is there any focus on proper contacts?

I know, I know...lol...questions! I just like to learn how other classes are taught to compare what I am doing, to see what I like better or worse or what things I might adapt to work on my own.

No, because our beginner class is all on-lead with the exception of a dog like Kenya (who was agility trained before I got her but *I* needed to start from scratch, and Rider the Terv who is titled and trained in other things and was actully bumped up).  The beginner class at our club is more about getting the dogs comfortable in that environment.  Some of them might even be afraid of some of the equipment.  Some need to learn to just calm down and shut up on a field with other dogs, lol!  The owners don't know much about agility and most have never done any of it before with any dog.

For contacts, our instructor kind of goes dog-by-dog.  For faster dogs and/or dogs that want to fly off, we use targets (lids) to point their heads down and keep them under control.  I use one for Kenya as a formality but I have control over her going over the top/halfway of any contact equipment.  Basically we treat it like a 2 on 2 off but I am not strict about actually stopping or sitting her with 2o2o.  Coke would be one to jump and fly off so I used the lid with him.

We don't even think about distance work at this level b/c these handlers are so green, it would be chaos.  They have little to no awareness of how dogs cue off their bodies, so it's futile to introduce distance work at this level.  In the third level we would do exercises like sending the dogs out over stuff and things like that.

Kim_MacMillan

AgileGSD, it's interesting that you say you saw far more foundation work 12 years ago than now in classes. I find that an interesting point, and I wonder if a lot of foundation work has been put on a back burner in the rush to get the dogs out there on the obstacles. Because the obstacles are actually the easiest part to teach, it's the handling, the fine details (contacts), and the accuracy that is where most issues arise in a trial (for those interested in trialling).

  In the first Intro agility classes I took (prior to agility even being an AKC sport) the class was two hours long. The class started with foundation stuff. That included target training, "heel" on both sides, back up, send aways, sit/down stays with distraction, walking across a ladder and go-out and call stuff with toys or treats. After that we would start obstacle work, so we were doing groundwork and training obstacles at the same time. The dogs got a lot of breaks between working and the instructors did a lot more talking. The instructors were some of the first agility people in our area and were from competition obedience backgrounds (where they were competive, not just getting titles). Most dogs were trained for running contacts or to just wait on the yellow - 2o2o,4OTF and the such were never taught.

 Now the more recent Intros I have gone to, the stuff above is touched on usually one exercise at a time at the end of each class as something you may want to practice at home. Our club largely bases the Intro class on the Clean Run Introduction to Agility book, although some differnet stuff has been added or taken out over the years. It isn't a bad class but as I said earlier, there are some issues I have had for me and my dogs. Handling stuff starts off super easy in Intro and gets progressively harder as you move up. Contact behavior is IMO not stressed enough in the lesson plans and students are not encouraged to do anything special for the contacts. They are told what their options are and not much lse is said unless the dog is having problems flying off.

 I think part of the lack of focus on foundation is the class is just an hour long and in 8 weeks the dogs are expected to be able to perform all obstacles (weaves with channels) - there just isn't time for a lot of non-obstacle training. Another thing is that clubs want people to remain interested in coming to classes. Most people who are interested in agility want to start their dogs on the equipment when they sign up for an agility class. Right or wrong that does factor in as well when you have a range of students - some just want to try it, some just want to do it for fun, some want to get titles and some want to be competive. I know that is why we do obstacles in the 4H Intro classes - if we didn't, a lot of new members would lose interest. In 4H Intro we do a combination of foundation and obstacle training in the Intro class and it is a bit different from the training club's Intro. In 4H the members start their dogs between March and May in agility and by August should be able to run a USDAA Juniors low level course. The USDAA low level Juniors stuff is is on-lead with low jumps and limited obstacles, so in our club we just teach the members/dogs what they need to know for that the first year.

 A training club in the next city has very informal agility classes and from what I have heard they work very, very little on any handling stuff even in their second and third level classes. The club which started everyone in this area in agility is still holding very competition oriented classes about an hour and half away. Their Intro is taught as a one day severla hour long workshop. Another local training facility has very competition based classes and there is strong focus on handling early on. That place rarely offers Intro classes and I have never gone to one there, so can't say how they are taught.

In case you're interested, I just posted a video of our contact training with Gaci in the Photos section. :-)

http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/92619.aspx

I totally understand about people losing interest, as I know the feeling of wanting to see your dogs do "stuff". At one time I felt the same way, and I realize that is a huge part of the drive to get out there and do the obstacles, and trainers realistically need students in order to get paid, so there is more drive to teach the obstacles quickly in a 6-8 week period.  I suppose for those who do want to go on to compete, they can then learn how to refine their skills and generally will always do it a bit different with the next dog they teach.

We really don't have anything to "teach" agility here, which is why I travel out of province (the last three seminar sessions were two weeks apart for the foundation stuff, the current three are six weeks apart). In between there are three of us that practice every Tuesday doing stuff from the seminar and other training, and we have a Yahoo group of all the seminar members as well as the two trainers who run it, where we bounce ideas off each other, discuss issues, post videos for critiques, etc. It's really a good setup for us since there is no official training club for agility in our province at all.

Another thing I just thought of is that I think the way our classes are structure, you are expected to work on focus and that sort of thing at home (we get "homework", like working with the target lids) but since maybe only me and one other person have some of their own stuff, the obstacles are done during class.  Like you said, the instructors want to get students, and the students want to actually DO stuff at class.  Each summer out of three sessions of three levels each, I would say maybe one or two people total actually stick with it and think of competing eventually.  The vast majority are not ever going to reach a level where handling techniques come into play, nor are they interested in traveling long distances for seminars.

I have to admit that I was a little frustrated with how slowly the club I go to actually started agility.  We were required to finish Intermediate Obedience and achieve our CGC before even enrolling in Beginner's Agility.  In hindsight I realize that we were doing all our distance work in Intermediate Obedience.

The first two sets of classes we did in agility introduced jumps, weave poles with guides, tunnels and the dreaded and boring walk board to practise contacts.  I'm now in my second intermediate class and the A-Frame and the Dog Walk have been introduced with the Frame now at full height and the walk inches above the ground.  We won't see the teeter for months, at least.

Morrison is a very hesitant dog that breaks his focus unless I am at his shoulder.  As he gains confidence I can send him out on things like straight lines of jumps, the A-Frame and the Dog Walk.  Our trainers have taken the time to let each one in the class know what is working for our particular dogs, which I appreciate quite a bit.

From what I gather in Europe and the rest of the world, they concentrate on handling for at least a year before competing whereas in the US, most students want to get onto sequencing as quickly as possible before they are ready hence why you see them on equipment quickly and the why the they handle their dog. However, you can only handle as well as your dog is trained and it depends how much time one puts into training away from class. I see teams with several years of experience in the excellent level but don't have enough 'ooomph' to step it up to a higher level because most are content where they are at but it boggles my mind. You see, they keep taking the classes but they're really isn't any progress or any effort to get better. It is like money being thrown out the window but not everyone in agility is there to be the best, its do something with their dog - relationship building

jdata

It is like money being thrown out the window but not everyone in agility is there to be the best, its do something with their dog - relationship building

Exactly.  The agility classes I have taken have all just been for me and the dog to "do" something.  I could see the difference in the people and their intensity levels. Some were totally focused and others like me, just having fun with their dogs.  I spent so many years focused on titles and ribbons in a different venue, that now I enjoy not having a goal but just doing what I please, when I please. LOL 

My training center doesn't use one particular "handling system," such as GD, LM or any of the other big names.  Obviously, when I started agility I hadn't even heard of such things.  I didn't know that handling systems existed until I started to get Clean Run, and by then I had my own way of doing things.

The beginner agility class at my training center is an introduction to obstacles and nothing more.  I actually got really frustrated when teaching the class because I wanted to introduce the concept of crosses, start lines, recalls, call-offs, etc. and my boss said, "Nope," because it would be "too over their heads."  I was to do nothing but teach them the obstacles and any rules pertaining to those obstacles (enter weaves on right, touch the yellow, etc.).  Towards the end we started to sequence obstacles.  Dogs who seemed to be getting the idea were allowed off leash.  Some people never go off leash in the beginner classes.

The majority of people don't go into agility with the intent of becoming highly competitive.  Most people start taking classes for something to do (especially in the winter!).  I was an odd one who started agility with the goal of competing as soon as possible -- it's just my personality -- and thankfully Luke was pretty talented at it.  Once we completed the beginner agility class, we started to take weekly private lessons in addition to the next level of group classes.  Luke was actually competing less than five months after his first class (and I think we had 6 qualifying runs that weekend).

The handling system classes such as described in the original post are GENERALLY populated by people who already have agility experience -- because they/we are the ones who appreciate that type of work.  People new to agility generally just want to get on the obstacles and if they aren't allowed they either quit or find somewhere else to train.

Kaiser has been an interesting training experience for me because I have been agility focused since the day I brought him home.  From day one, all of his training has been done with agility in mind.  I've always worked him from both sides, worked on building drive and sending him away.  I brought out hoops at a very early age to work on handling exercises, teaching him front & rear crosses and lateral distance.

I want running contacts, so I didn't do ANY contact/touch specific work with him.  Frankly, I don't WANT him jumping up the off-side of a contact to do a touch (such as my training center teaches in the beginner class).  I want Kaiser to know that the purpose of a piece of contact equipment is to go up and over as fast as he can.  Now, Kaiser is a small dog and hitting the contacts aren't generally a problem for him, but I do keep his focus low by tossing his treats at the bottom so that he drives through instead of jumping.

I skipped the beginner agility class with Kaiser since I'd done all of his obstacle introduction at home.  I enrolled him in the next level class and actually ended up bumping him into the more advanced group after a couple of weeks because he was so far ahead (even though he was only 13 months old!).

He gets to do his first trial (Teacup) this month, just shy of 15 months old.  I'm interested to see how he handles the very close distance between obstacles, as he's wickedly fast and more used to NADAC-style distances.

Speaking of "fast," -- I don't do much correcting at this point in Kaiser's training.  If he happens to blaze past a jump because he was going to fast to make the turn, I just keep going and figure it was *my fault* and that I have to do better next time.  I hardly ever go back and make him re-do something, because my main focus is SPEED.  I don't want to correct a mistake I made and make Kaiser de-motivated by thinking he did something wrong.  Better obstacle commitment & focus will come with time & experience.