Why do breeders feed ProPlan?

It's just that if I were feeding a puppy I would want to insure it was getting all the required nutrients in the right balance and would be more likely to use a puppy food that has been carefully researched.

I find it bizarre that people actually believe that dog food companies do "careful research" on nutrition. Most home-prepared diets have more research to back them up than the dog food companies do to back up their offerings- I refer you again to the Iams puppy food study which continues to horrify me with its implications for all puppies raised on so-called "complete" commercial diets.

With a few noteworthy exceptions, dog food company research generally falls into three categories: finding things to add/spray on the food so dogs will eagerly gobble up the dry lumps; finding things to add to the food so the dogs will make poop that won't horrify their owners; and turning cheap garbage from other industries into "food" that will pass the incredibly lax AAFCO standards.

While I have never seen any proof that the companies are doing extensive and thorough research and testing on these foods, NEITHER have I ever seen any proof that they are not doing so.  This could be said of any product where the makers claim testing, research, etc. If you are not present to witness such, then you can never be positive of research./lack of reseach, testing/lack of testing.

I read their papers on their research. Also attend meetings where they present findings from their research. And you can kind of guess what they are doing/thinking behind the scenes by their product changes. Recent examples:

Research driven: senior forumulas with more protein not less. Iam's "Smart puppy" food.

Profit driven: hordes of grain-free EVO "knock offs" (e.g. Taste of the Wild, Before Grain, Wellness Core) and over-priced grainy foods pretending to be based on the wolf-type predator diet (e.g. Eukabana's Naturally Wild, etc.), foods that clearly haven't been intensively researched and are just hastily formulated and put out there in hopes of grabbing some of the market share. Things like Beneful and ProPlan Shredded formulas, clearly designed to attempt to make tons of money off really cheap-to-make foods supported by intensive ad campaigns. Formula changes, sometimes sneakily made, to reduce the costs of making the food (e.g. canidae, possibly timberwolf, possibly nutro).

mudpuppy

Profit driven: hordes of grain-free EVO "knock offs"

mudpuppy

I read their papers on their research. Also attend meetings where they present findings from their research. And you can kind of guess what they are doing/thinking behind the scenes by their product changes.

I'm getting confused again. I thought you said some time ago that you worked for an insurance company reviewing medical claims. I didn't realize you had another job that allowed you access to R & D meetings at the food companies. That is amazing.

sarah_b

And do dog food web sites publish any of their research?

  You have to hunt for it. 

Hill's research regarding the amount of selenium required by puppies;

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/jpn/2004/00000088/F0020009/art00004?crawler=true 

 They wanted the AAFCO to increase the recommended amount. I don't see how they make a profit doing that.

Purina's protein study; Kealy Richard D., Phd; Factors influencing lean body mass in aging dogs. Proceedings of the 1998 Purina Nutrition Forum;

The study found a higher mortality rate after three years in senior dogs fed a diet lower in protein than the average adult food compared to those fed a diet higher in protein. As a result, they increased the amount of protein in their senior foods, which would increase the cost of making them.

Purina lifespan study;   http://www.incredible-dogs.com/nutrition/lifespan_study_information_en.pdf

 The study started in 1987 and was completed in 2001; " Researchers proved that
maintaining dogs in lean body condition extended their median life span by 15 percent – or
nearly two years for the Labrador retrievers in this study."

  They used 48 Labradors for this study and it lasted 14 years.

 That's all I have time for but you may be able to find others; I'm not too good at Googling.

You can't work for them or you would not be trashing their products.  And if you work for another company, why are they allowing you into their meetings, making your privvy to their research, etc.  And if you are "kinda guessing", then you do not know for sure, can not say something is true.  A guess does not make a statement true.  And if just anyone can attened these meetings, i would like to let the breeders, show people on the golden retriever forums know how to go about  attending these meetings and getting all this inside information and it could change their idea of how well their dogs do on ProPlan.

 At these meetings do they discuss how they can use trash, scraps, etc to make this junky food and con John Q. Public into thinking their dog is getting a blanced diet? Do they say something like  "How can we make John Q. Public believe they are feeding a good quality food, that their dog is healthy, that they are doing well on it.  Oh, I know, let us say we have done a lot of reserch and have proven our food is balanced.  We don't have to tell thm we are really filling it with garbage and trash  They will believe us .and neither they nor the judges in the show ring will truly see the dogs have dull, oily coats, dirty ears, are over or underweight, barely make it around the ring because their diet is so unbalanced."

Many of the breeder/show people on my golden forums use Pro Plan and their dogs have clearences, many have won championships in the ring, and they truly believe in it and we see many, many pictures of these dogs and they are all beautiful.  There are some that do feed other food and i think that should be expected.  Everyone goes with whaqt works best, or they believe works best for their dogs based on health, looks, energy, etc.  But I am surte many would like to attend these meetings to find out all about how Purina and some of the others are lying to them, tricking them, etc.

Sandra, I'm on your side in maintaining that people should do what's in their comfort zone.  I'm NOT a Purina fan but I don't thik they are the worst out there.  

BUT,

i can't agree that show ring success is proof of good health and condition.  There's lots of ways to fix up coat quality, and the condition of many, many of the dogs as far as weight goes, is just atrocious. 

Last night I watched the Border Collie judging at Westminster on the web.  Even my husband, who knows zilch about dog shows, and really never notices stuff like this, was howling at the four vaguely BC shaped blobs that were waddling up and down the ring.  I've never seen such ridiculous shuffling jiggling excuses for a BC in my life, outside of abusive pet homes (abusive because they never exercised their dogs and fed them way too much). 

And the judge put up not one, but every single one of these dogs - BOB, reserve, and two awards of merit. 

The same thing happened in the Pyrenees ring.  Clearly obese is the expectation - when it's totally out of line with the standard.  I don't give a darn for the standard as it doesn't matter to me as long as my dog can get 100 sheep off a hillside and spend all day pushing them through the barn for shearing, then put them back at the end of the day - or spend a night patrolling 60 acres and a day warning off intruders. 

But, I wouldn't draw any conclusions about a food those dogs were fed based on how they looked at shows, or whether they won, when clearly the judges are rewarding condition that is directly contradictory to functionality.  In fact I might draw some negative conclusions.  Those dogs really didn't look healthy.  It's insane when a Border Collie is panting after three trips around a 20 foot wide ring.

 You have to remember, too, that lifestyle makes a huge difference. Many, many show dogs spend their lives in custom built, rv shaped kennels, moving from show to show. To be one of those top show dogs, especially in a breed with numbers like BCs and Labs, you have to show at least every week. The coats are definitely doctored, though. You can build coat where it's scarce, add shine where there's none, put the sparkle back into a lifeless coat. You can even add color! (and trust me, it's done more commonly than some people would like to believe)

Being a champion is definitely not the top measure for what makes a dog do well. 

glenmar

I would never even consider a breeder whose "warranty" is voided by not feeding a specific food, no matter how good that food is.  That's a bit like a car dealer demanding that I use ONLY X brand of gasoline and X brad of oil and X brand of other fluids if I want my warranty to be in tact.  I don't think so.

Personally I don't care what the dog "warranty" is because the warranty only covers an exchange or return of the dog and that is not something I would do.  Once that dog comes home with me its mine forever..    Therefore, what I feed is not something that breeder would ever know.  What are they going to do?  Make door to door closet check ups every three months?? 

I would not be concerned about a contract that specified what I had to feed nor would it stop me from acquiring a dog from that breeder if I found that breeder to be ethical and honest. I'd feed the dog what I felt like feeding him..   seriously how would they know and do they really care?  That is probably a condition of their advertising the pet food and getting discounts or sponsorships to do so.

Llluvmyswissy, that is a beautiful dog you have there, and what a great shot!  They are such beautiful dogs.

On one of my golden forums  couple bought a golden puppy (Canada) from arecommended breeder.  They posted pictures of the puppy from day one, and then suddenly, it's coat changed and became al curly, especially on hit's face.  They were convinced it wasnot full golden after all, posted picutres and everyone said --golden and poodle,.  then confronted the owner and he kinda shrugged it off and said he guessed there had been a fould up and the poolde had gotten to the mom.  He would not refund money, but offered to take the puppy back and exchange for another one from next litter.  Like you said, by then they were totally in love with their goldendoodle (and she is a precious looking pup) and wouldn't give her up.  Turns out the "reputable breeder" turns out golen retrievers, poodles, goldendoodles, and a couple more breeds and possibily more of those "designer dogs." 

right now that couple and others who got puppies from that litter, thinking they got pure goldens, are trying to get something done.  When this couple first tried it alone, they were told that "the guy offered to take the puppy back and give them another one" so nothing could be done.   

But anyway, you are right that once you have a puppy and love it, you don't want to give it back.  However I do not know how they will find out what you are feeding the puppy unless yo live in a small town like I do and the breeder happened to live there as well and you were seen buying other food. 

There is one hobby breeder on one forum that  is porbably more careful with hedogs than most ful time breeders.  She has 4 females.  One was spayed before ever being bred because there "could be" a hip problem in the future, tho none now.  She would not risk passing on a "possible problem"  One female is not a year old and no female is bred before age 2.  And this one is the daughterof one of the two she does breed--every other year!  She had kept a male from her first littler, but had him nuered a few months ago because she felt he was "to leggy" for breed standard and did not want to pass it on.    She does have the all clearences done on all dogs.  and she DOES HAVE A FOOD REQUIREMENT in the contract with her sale of her puppies  However, it is not limied to just one food, but to several foods she really feels is best of dogs (no Beneful, Ol Roy, etc)..  She  feeds Taste of the Wild to her grown dogs..  I guess she figures she has gone to a lot of expense to ensure she has great breeding dogs, healthly puppies, and she wants to make sure those puppies stay healthy  Several memebers off tht forum have gotten puppies from her the past 3 years and we have enjoyed watching them grow up, beautiful, healthy happy dogs.

Oh, iwould really lik to know how to make a thin dull, oily coat turned into a thick, shiney, glossy one and maybe i I could use  it for myself.  LOL.  My hair thinned, is not as shiney and gets so darn oily  with my thyroid problem and i would love to have it back he way it was.  The lady that cuts my hair said I could dye it and that mkes it apper thicker.  . But if there is some product or trick  that will work, I would love to ty it.! 

LOL Sandra, I used to work with an all-breed adoption organization, and I'd volunteer to take dogs to adoption fairs.  What I did was take the dog a day or so in advance, and many times they'd have nasty coats and greasy skin, and they'd stink.

I got tons of tips from groomers and show handlers on improving the appearance of coat and skin - getting tone in a flabby appearance and masking doggy oily smell.  Whitening white parts and making black or color "pop."  Getting that "glow" and putting a soft handle in the coat.  Tidying up and clipping so that the rest of the coat looks fuller and richer.  Blow drying and line brushing to highlight a long topcoat and take attention from any problems like sores or undercondition.

This wasn't deceitful or misleading.  I felt it was important that people look past the "lost dog" look and see the real personality of these dogs, shining through.  And I was only putting the dog in a time machine - advancing his look forward to what he'd be like, with some tender loving care. When I started fostering on my own, I felt it was important enough that I didn't offer a dog for adoption until they had that "well-loved" look naturally, via good food, exercise, and grooming.  And I still "show groom" a BC I'm getting ready to meet a prospective family. 

When I do the adoption, I have a list of recommended foods but I don't mandate anything, unless there's a health reason.  One time I did adopt out a dog who had a very strict diet, warned the adopter that bad things would happen if she strayed from it, and unfortunately that didn't turn out well.  So you can't dictate anything, really.  I also give advice on grooming and show them how to keep the coat in top shape so there's no disappointment if they pay attention during the adoption (LOL).

Check out what goes on backstage at a dog show.  That's only what happens day of. 

If you want to get some tips, put "how to groom a Golden retriever for show" in Google.  I looked this up when the Lynnberger started to grow out her Golden-like coat and got lots of good tips on keeping her pretty.  But you can see a lot of what is done to hide problems, too. 

I've heard many show handlers and breeders who have switched from one of the old war horses of the show ring (Euk, Pro Plan, etc) to a super premium or fresh foods.  Many of these rave that they no longer have to do a lot of the extensive coat conditioning, or supplements, they did before. 

But what can I do to make MY HAIR look better?  I use shamppoo that is suppose to do that, but it doesn't.  And I sure am not going back to the old "ratting"we did in early 60's.  I don't want my hair "so big" a bushel basket would not fit on my head just a little more thikeness and shine and not so oily evey day. Oh, I do keep it cut very short.  That is suppose to help also.

 Try Thick N Thicker, by Chris Cristensen. It's available fro chrissystems.com. Their products are fabulous!! I use their Day To Day on my hair, all the time. It dries faster (because they do that to dog shampoos), and it's easier on my skin and hair than like priced human shampoos. I also use it on Ena Bean. They have color enhancing shampoos, too, that work great. The White On White is the *only* whitening product for dogs I've found that actually works.

 Oh, you want the foaming response protein liquid stuff. Not the spray. Well, you might want the spray, too;) It's a styling product. The other stuff is something you'd use in the shower. I've  never used it on my hair, I use thinning shears on that! I have used it  on both dogs, with huge success. You can definitely make coat where there really isn't enough, if you have some grooming skill, a really good dog, and lots of patience (it has to do with combing, drying, and using product *juuuust* right).