Neverending Loose Stool

    • Gold Top Dog

    JD_Shelties
    Just going to throw it out there... Ivermectin? This always happens around Heart Worm medication time... and my Breeder's Breeder (haha what a silly thing to call someone) told me that one of her dogs had a bad reaction with Ivermectin and it's fairly common in Shelties???

    If you do a search on here, there is a lot of good information about ivermectin in herding dogs.  I believe it has something to do with genetic intolerance.  Oh, here's a previous thread discussing it: http://community.dog.com/forums/p/81080/632930.aspx#632930

    Maybe Callie will pop in and explain this better.  She knows a lot about the ivermectin issues.

    Me, personally, I'll never use ivermectin with my dog, because we're pretty sure he's a lab/herding breed mix.  Better to be safe than sorry....he'll always be on Interceptor.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Yeah, sometimes its tough figuring out what causes are.  The Ivermectin that is in heartwork prevention is a very low dosage (I understand)...but if Shelties are prone to reactions...it would make me wonder.

    Sensitive tummies cannot tolerate switching of foods well.  I would do the bland diet for a couple of weeks then ease her back on to a kibble.

    About the vet...change...if you aren't comfortable with the answers you get. 

    Good luck!

    • Gold Top Dog

    The ivermectin thing is a problem in the brain.  It causes vertigo, drooling, loss of muscle control, seizure activity, heart palpations, ataxia, muscle twitches, but no problems that I've ever seen recorded with the intestines.  It's just a different system. 

    Still, with a Sheltie I'd stay away from ivermectin - but you need to test for the MDR-1delta gene anyway because some of the things prescribed commonly for Sheltie-type problems (IBS, heart problems, pain meds) will also cause a Sheltie with this gene to react.  It's important, y'all with these breeds - get your dogs tested!!!!!!  You don't want to find out in the emergency vet that your dog has this gene and pain meds will cause uncontrollable seizures. Sad

    What you describe sounds like one of two possible things.  One is overfeeding, which can happen with the grain frees very easily.  Even a few ounces can make a difference.  If you have a kitchen scale, try weighing the food instead of scooping it, for a few days, then reduce the amount by a third and see what happens.  If you can't weigh it, try eyeballing it, but when you are feeding a smallish dog it's far better to weigh.

    The second possible thing is irritable bowel syndrome, or IBS.  This is not to be confused with the similar acronym but very different condition, IBD, which is inflammatory bowel disease or disorder, usually caused by trauma or infection.

    Irritable bowel syndrome's causes are not known, but every sufferer has sure fire triggers for it.  It's where the bowels don't contract properly - either they cramp irregularly and hold waste in so long that constipation occurs, or they move things along too fast in arhythmic contractions that don't allow for proper water absorption.  So you can see where the uneven st00l consistency comes from (I have to hide that word from the filter or it bleeps it and it looks like I used a word I NEVER use - LOL!).

    If you suspect IBS, your best friend is a journal.  Either way, start journaling now.  Note date, time, amount eaten, food type, any possible external stressors like moving, visitors, training. And of course record bowel movements.

    I guarantee you that if you feel that you haven't been taken seriously in the past, your vet will sit up and take notice when you present him or her with a couple weeks or a month's worth of actual data.  This is what they are trained to do - they can't help it.  Unless they are looking at numbers and symptoms most vets feel vaguely like a cross between an astrologer and a psychological therapist, trying to read people's minds.

    Managing IBS is all about identifying the major triggers and then calming down the GI.  It takes three weeks for things to really settle down, though removing the trigger often improves things immediately.  Each time you trigger you have to start again at three weeks.  But then you write down the stressor.  It can be food, or environment, cleaning chemicals, laundry soap, inhaled allergens, or even mental pressure and EVEN happy events - excitement can trigger IBS, even if it's good excitement! 

    Good luck! 

    • Gold Top Dog

     oh brookcove this just fantasic!!! thank you so much! I am so happy to have a member such as yourself here to help!

    *crossing my fingers for Shyla!!!* I'm going to work hard at making my girl feeling better.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I just wanted to suggest Natural Balance Sweet Potato and Fish.  It worked very well for Willow who has a lot of bowel issues too.

    • Gold Top Dog

    willowchow

    I just wanted to suggest Natural Balance Sweet Potato and Fish.  It worked very well for Willow who has a lot of bowel issues too.

     

    I'm so glad something is working for you consistently, Lori!  Do you feed canned or dry or both?

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove
    The ivermectin thing is a problem in the brain.  It causes vertigo, drooling, loss of muscle control, seizure activity, heart palpations, ataxia, muscle twitches, but no problems that I've ever seen recorded with the intestines.  It's just a different system. 

     

     

    Does the same gene occur in other breeds? I wonder if Emma is part sheltie??? She does the whole seizures, drooling, loss of muscle control, twitching deal at the heartworm preventative dose. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'm doing this from memory - you can google this topic and the article should come up with the accurate listing.  Breeds positively IDed with the gene:

    • Collie
    • Sheltie
    • English sheepdog
    • Aussie
    • English shepherd
    • Beardie (disputed)
    • ACD (very rare, disputed)
    • Silken windhound
    • McNab
    • Longhaired Whippet
    So yes, she could have inherited it from a cross with either a sheltie or even a collie dog way back when in her pedigree.  The reason Border Collies don't have it is that people who study genetic history think the mutation occurred in the late 1800s, well after the split between the ISDS registered trial-bred dogs and "the rest" of the collie breed that was a precursor to all the above breeds.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I have been feeding Shyla home-cooked meals since Saturday and every day since she has not had a single episode of "gross booty" (as we like to call it). The stool is not perfect, but it's been good enough not to stick to her bum and not a whole lot of pooping either.

    Today I put her back on the Natural Balance kibble to see what that does (oh boy I hope I'm not being mean!) If in 24 hours she has another episode I'm going to assume it's the kibble...

    I'm looking into brands for her such as: Fromm, Before Grain, and California Natural

    I'd continue to do the home-cooked meals but I'm no expert at it for the long-term, plus it's hard work!!

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    JD_Shelties

     

    I'd continue to do the home-cooked meals but I'm no expert at it for the long-term, plus it's hard work!



      Actually, it gets easier after a little while; I'm a full time home cooker and you develop a routine. I prepare a week's worth of food at a time. Monica Segal or Sabine Contreras can formulate a balanced recipe for your dog; it could be based on what you're cooking now, since it seems to agree with her. Please change to the Natural Balance very slowly, taking one to two weeks to change her over from the home cooked, or she's likely to have more loose stools. Keeping my fingers crossed that the NB works for her; good luck.Smile

      

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove
    I'm so glad something is working for you consistently, Lori!  Do you feed canned or dry or both?

    It did work well for quite some time.  But, after the ITP bout she is on a special (veterinary) all canned/home made topper diet.  I could probably try to change her diet at this point.  But, she's doing so well I don't dare and I'm so afraid any little thing can and will cause a relapse. 

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    It's back!!!... Devil evil evil Natural Balance... LOL

    So it really is the kibble.

    I'm going to put her back on a FISH diet!! I'm going to do California Natural to start, if that doesn't work within a month I feel like I'm going to have to cook for Shyla... *head to desk*

    • Gold Top Dog

    mrv

    My best results have been on salmon based food.  I use Purina One Sensitive Skin and Stomach.  However, you might want to check out Flint River's salmon or trout options.  I think those meets all your requirements.

     

    I've heard many people say how much this helps their sensitive dogs.  My minpin is 13 now, has always looked pretty good skin/coat-wise, but he has always had loose, pudding poop.  I made sure I was not overfeeding.  I have tried just about every holistic food out there (which I prefer) but I'm giving Purina ONE sens. systems a try now.  Scooping the yard and cleaning up after him on walks is very unpleasant, to say the least.  Try picking pudding out of someone's front yard. 

    He's been checked by several vets over the years, been on Metranidazole, probiotics, yogurt, grain free, you name it.

    The only other food that really worked so well for him was Volhard NDF2, and I'm not sure I want to go with raw.

    • Puppy
    Have you had your vet test for giardia?
    • Gold Top Dog

    Kind of off topic as I don't have a problem with loose stool (currently), but Heidi has a very sensitive stomach and is sometimes finicky.  Over the last week or so, she has been ignoring her food...and its been a chore to get her food in.  So, when I bought more food, I changed flavors of the TOTW to see if that would make a difference.  She had been on the chicken based, and I bought the fish based this time.  She seems to like the change, so far.