prescription dog food

Shelley75

 What do you all think of this food?  It's Hill's prescription canned food for dogs, z/d ultra allergen.  My dog has many food allergies.  He's a 4 year old cocker spaniel who gets lots of irritation in his ears and bites and scratches.  He has been on this food for maybe 2 years.  I'm concerned about lack of nutrition. 

If you really want to analyze the nutritional aspects, you'll have to do some math, but here are the 2008 guidelines from one source, the AAFCO.  There's another one that foodies like to use that's supposedly a bit better but I can't remember the name.  Note the conversion instructions if the food label gives 'as fed' analysis.

AAFCO Dog Food Standards

And here's the nutritional info on z/d from Hill's website.

That said, these are just general guidelines.  Depending on lifestyle and metabolism, each dog is going to need different things.  My Woobie needs more food overall, he burns calories like crazy!  Indie needs high fiber for his stomach issues.  Generally, there's not going to be a food marketed out there, especially a RX food that doesn't meet nutritional minimums.  The question for you as an owner is balancing the minimum requirements and what your dog needs due to medical conditions.  For instance, Indie's homecooked diet developed by a veterinary  nutritionist is low in a needed linoleic acid.  We know that going in because he can't tolerate the ingredients that would provide higher levels of that oil.  So, looking at his diet, you might say it's not nutritionally 'balanced' and might cause some coat problems long term.  But when you have a dog that can't handle something, you work with what you can.  If you have an allergic dog, you might not be able to feed a diet that's ultra balanced, nutritionally superior.  You do the best you can and move on, you know? 

Thank you all for your honest opinions.  Yes, it's working for him, but he still rubs his ears, bites himself and scratches, but only very little.  It may be because I give him treats and I'm sure he's allergic to something in there.  But he is definitely much better on the z/d than any other food. 

He had a blood test for allergies when he was one, which many foods came back positive, including flaxseed and barley.  I know people don't think it's accurate, but it seemed accurate to me because when I tried to give him the foods that were positive, he had reactions.  I just don't like the nutrition in z/d for long term, but every time I try him on something he seems to get a reaction.  He also had a blood test for environmental allergies, which came back positive for mold.  I live in a house that is only 7 years old, so I don't think he's being exposed to mold.  I'll keep trying different foods, but I have a feeling he may need the z/d.

 Thanks again,

Michelle

i know very little about nutrition, but you'd be surprised about the mold thing. 7 years is nothing for mold...

the building i live in is about that old as well and i have mold all over my apartment!!!! (and yes, i am moving -yepee!!). if it is even a remote possibillity, you should check it out, not just for your dog's health but also for your own... i was having respiratory problems for over a year and was taking medication for most of that time, until i realized i had mold... it was probably already present when i moved in 2.5 years ago... mold is no joke!

 Mold spores travel a long way, and they don't take years to develop, just days.  If you have shade trees anywhere around, or sandy soil, you can get mold growth with every precipitation event.

Mold is a really awful allergy and a hard one to get around.  Here is the Mayo clinic's recommendations for minimizing exposure to mold.  The main thing to do is to reduce exposure to the other allergies you know about.  If he's positive for dust mites, for instance, make sure his bedding is dust mite proof and that his sleeping area is uncarpeted.  My whole household has asthma so I have a pretty stripped down house - anything soft can be washed, beds ad pillows are cased in dustmite proof covers, and I have no carpets of course, anywhere, other than area rugs I can take outside and wash thoroughly (I use inside-outside type rugs).

I had a dog with really bad food allergies.  He had a whole list of stuff he couldn't eat.  He also had the environmental allergies, inhaled and contact. 

Another thing you can do is reduce inhaled and contact irritants in his environment.  Check out your cleaning supplies and think whether there's any chemicals you can swap out for for natural based products, if you don't already.  Dogs walk around with their noses about 12 inches or less off the floor and they are in "bare feet" all the time - and then lick their paws clean.  Imagine if you had to do that after you'd just Swiffered or used Pine-Sol.  Anything that irritates can trigger an allergy event.

So I did this for Ben - I stopped using chemically stuff and I think we've all benefitted, too.

Another thing I learned with Ben is that little things add up.  Ben could react to soy oil, which is not supposed to trigger allergies because in theory it has no proteins in it, because it's actually nearly impossible to rid an oil of all the proteins associated with it.  I'm sure they are careful with the z/d but it would never have worked for Ben. 

It sounds like your dog is highly sensitive to something and it's got his system on high alert all the time.  Your goal is to get his system down to where it's not reacting to everything all the time.  Allergies do not go away but you can get things calmed down enough that a quick exposure to something won't trigger an immediate reaction.

Think of a bucket.  Your dog's immune system is like a bucket.  Each exposure to a trigger puts a bit more in the bucket.  He won't react until the bucket overflows.  Finally, he's exposed to something and the bucket overflows and you see uncomfortable symptoms.

If the bucket is close to overflowing all the time, he can be exposed to something very tiny and you'll see symptoms just the same as if he'd been exposed to something he's really allergic to.

If you get his system calmed down (with the use of this food, if it's working), your dog will be able to tolerate minor incursions on his system.  You may be able to "get away" with something major, depending on how long it's been since your dog was exposed - but remember all this will "fill the bucket" again and you'll be close to a reaction the more you let your guard down.

So the short answer is, if it's working, don't mess with it.  If it NOT working though - if you are still getting symptoms - don't accept that, since it IS possible there's something in the food that is bothering him.  Ben, as I said, couldn't eat that stuff - we tried it and he ended up on an IV.

My next step after that would be to work with a veterinary immune specialist if you are lucky enough to have one in your area.  If not, consider working with a nutrition consultant to at least expand your food options - my suggestion would be to contact Monica Segal as she has a lot of experience in the area of severe food allergies.  Here's a web page to get you started and some reading material - but she offers a direct consultation service. 

Sabine Contreras has helped me out a lot - she offers a similar service if you want to check her out too.  And if you uncover an underlying chronic health issue requiring a veterinary nutritionist, Dr. Rebecca Remillard offers her services and hey, you gotta love someone named Rebecca, right? 

Good luck! 

Shelley75

 He also had a blood test for environmental allergies, which came back positive for mold.  I live in a house that is only 7 years old, so I don't think he's being exposed to mold.  I'll keep trying different foods, but I have a feeling he may need the z/d.

 Thanks again,

Michelle

Aha! That might be it.  If you live where leaves fall, mold can be terrible.  Woobie has an ear infection right now, and I know it's not food based because nothing has changed for months in his diet.  But we have moldy oak leaves everywhere! 

I'll just put in a quick good word for homecooked diets for allergic dogs.  It's SO much easier to control the ingredients and balancing with the help of a nutritionist isn't that tough or expensive when you compare it to the cost of vet visits and bags of z/d.  My dogs are so much healthier and happier thanks to homecooking!  Good luck! 

Shelley75

Yes, it's working for him, but he still rubs his ears, bites himself and scratches, but only very little.  It may be because I give him treats and I'm sure he's allergic to something in there.  But he is definitely much better on the z/d than any other food. 

Feeding him treats with ingredients that he's allergic to is a big problem. What ingredients do you know for sure that he's allergic to and what foods have you tried before? Just curious because I would be more than willing to help search for a food that you might try.

We live in a woody area and there are tons of trees and tons of leaves.  My dog is obsessed with leaves.  And I mean obsessed.  He chases them when I walk him and whenever he goes out in the yard to do his business, he is always bringing leaves inside the house and he even eats them.  I take away what I can, but he does end up eating some each time he goes out.  And I try to keep my yard as free as leaves as possible, but it's impossible to be free of them completely.  Maybe that's the problem.  How do I get him to stop eating leaves?  He gets possessive of them and will growl if I try to take them away, unless I throw a cookie at him, then he drops the leave and eats the cookie and then I'm able to take the leave away.

Thanks,

Michelle

 I don't think it matters if he eats them or not, the mold is just "in the environment" right now, you know?  If he goes outside and potties, he's going to be exposed.  Wiping him down with a wet cloth when he comes in might help remove the spores from his coat and help cut down on his reaction and your vet might be able to recommend some type of antihistamine that might help.  I think like alot of us with seasonal allergies, it might just be something that you have to deal with this time of year.  It would be interesting to see if his reactions are reduced during the time of year that mold is not so bad (here in humid VA, it's around ALOT).

We live in a woody area and there are tons of trees and tons of leaves

There you go.  Mold spores are an inhaled allergen - they are airborne.  Here's a great rundown on mold from Washington state DOH.  If there's any state that knows mold, it's got to be our Northwest brethren.  Can you say rain forest?

One thing that can help is getting a whole house air filter.  It will help everyone in the house.  I'd love to do it but our new house is 100 years old and there's really only so much we'll be able to do to fight allergens!

I know how difficult it is, if you've got oodles of leaves - but if you can possibly do it, restrict his direct access to those leaves for a while, particularly during wet weather.  If you can, get the leaves out of the yard.  You can't stop the mold spores from floating around, but he's causing himself worlds of problems by sticking his face right in those leaves like that.  Remember the bucket.  Get his bucket emptied (it will take MONTHS), and you might be able to let him play, in dry weather.

It's important enough that if you have to use a leash to stop him from getting into those leaves, you might want to consider it.  Think of how much time and money you are spending at the vet.  Try to re-direct him to another game - letting him play with the leaves is tempting, I know (we all love a dog that will self-exercise, so to speak).  But I'm getting sympathetic itchiness just thinking of him flinging those leaves around. 

brookcove

It's important enough that if you have to use a leash to stop him from getting into those leaves, you might want to consider it.  Think of how much time and money you are spending at the vet.  Try to re-direct him to another game - letting him play with the leaves is tempting, I know (we all love a dog that will self-exercise, so to speak).  But I'm getting sympathetic itchiness just thinking of him flinging those leaves around.

  Great advice; Becca, I love your "bucket" analogy; it's right on. Mold is about the only environmental allergen Jessie doesn't have a problem with. I love the idea of teaching him another game to redirect his interest; having such close contact with leaves will definitely cause problems. I also like the idea of having Monica or Sabine formulate a special diet. Sabine formulated a diet for Jessie taking into account her food allergies and she's doing great. While waiting for the consultation, I fed Jessie a RX food for atopic dogs made by Royal Canin  during the summer. She did very well, but she's doing even better on the cooked diet.

There's another one that foodies like to use that's supposedly a bit better but I can't remember the name.

  The guidelines that "foodies" like me prefer is the 2006 guidelines by the National Research Council; Monica and Sabine use those in formulating diets. When the AAFCO was first organized, they based their recommendations on the NRC guidelines. Over time, they changed some of them; for example, they lowered the amount of protein for "practical reasons". They are heavily influenced by the pet food industry;

http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html;

As noted above, AAFCO members include officials from the FDA, CVM, and the cooperative states. But AAFCO also consists of members from the pet food manufacturing industry. In 1994, the AAFCO Official Publication listed a group of members charged with developing and reviewing standards for terms found on pet food labels. Of the group’s six members, four were pet food company employees.[71] Discovering who works for pet food companies has become more difficult since 1994. But a close look at the current AAFCO Official Publications reveals continued influence by the pet food industry over the regulation of their own products. While the listings of committee members in the Official Publication do not reveal any organizational affiliation, the listings of committee advisors do provide such information. These committee advisor listings are polluted with industry members. In 2006, the Pet Food Committee Advisors consisted of twelve people.[72] Six of these advisors were associated with pet food industry organizations such as the Pet Food Institute or the American Pet Products Manufacturers Association.[73] This board of twelve directly “advises” the Pet Food Committee which consists of only seven members.

You are all great and are a wealth of information.  I don't even go out with him, since we have a small fenced in yard.  I had raked the yard again yesterday, but somehow, Jake still manages to find a leave somewhere.  LOL!  Maybe I can teach him another game, like ball, but I doubt he will give up his leaves!  We live in Massachusetts.  When the snow comes, the leaves will be buried.  I didn't realize mold is in the air.  I thought it was all contact.

Anyway, these are the foods that are suspicious of an allergy for him:  chicken, turkey, lamb, wheat, flaxseed, barley and peas.  I also think he might be allergic to beef, duck and venison, but not sure.  I used to homecook for him.  It was a ton of work for me.  I have Cystic Fibrosis (a chronic lung disease and am hospitalized frequently, then sent home to do my own iv antibiotics at home for 3 weeks at a time).  I have many doctor appointments and feel tired a lot.  Unfortunately, homecooking is not something I am able to do at this time.  If anyone knows of a good quality dog food, I'm willing to try it, but his blood test was positive for chicken, turkey, lamb, wheat, flaxseed, barley and peas.  The others that I listed is just my suspicion. 

I'm sure it may be a combination of the mold (leaves) and food.  I love my dog more than I love myself and I want to do the right thing for him and I was just getting concerned about the z/d as a long term diet.  I don't want him to get an illness or something due to an unbalanced, un-nutritious diet. 

Thanks again,

Michelle

You may want to try one of the fish based formulas---some that come to mind without flaxseed(no chix/turkey, lamb, wheat, barley or peas)

Petcurean's Go! Salmon/Oatmeal formula--very simple

Orijen Six Fresh Fish formula

Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream

You could also try Honest Kitchen's Preference----it's a dehydrated pre-mix-----you add in the meat.

 I agree, I'd look at the fish based foods, that might work, but I think alot of them contain flaxseed, so watch for that.  If he was positive for chicken and turkey, I'd avoid duck as well.  Both of my dogs have different issues (Woobie's allergies & Indie's fat intolerance, fiber dependent) and they've both done well with oatmeal and salmon (and other stuff in their nutritionist developed diets).  It might be worth a try looking at fish-based commercial foods, BUT, if he's in the midst of reacting to something, be it dietary or environmental, it will be hard to figure out if the food is or isn't working or if it's a mold issue.  When I did Woobie's elimination diet trials, the vet suggested we do it during the winter when the environmental allergens would be at their lowest.  I wouldn't try new foods with your guy until there's a good bit of snow on the ground ('bout a week from now in MA - LOL!  I used to live there!).

 Ooh, tzu-mom, great idea abut the HK Preference

Ingredients:

Alfalfa, sweet potatoes, cabbage, celery, apples, spinach, organic kelp, coconut, bananas, zucchini, and honey.

Another one, same idea, Know Better - they have a formula you use with raw meat and one you use with cooked meat.  Ingredients (the one that is used with cooked, also includes enzymes and some amino acids):

egg yolk, calcium lactate, gelatin, rice bran, whey protein concentrate,
beet root, psyllium husks, EFA from fish, barley grass powder, kelp, taurine, rose hip, parsley flakes, Vitamin E succinate, Vitamin B complex.

There's also one that already has liver in it if you don't even want to mess with that - and it costs the same. 

I can testify to the Know better being super easy to use.  I use it with my kitties here - three cats - I just had two surgeries in a row (exploratory and a hysterectomy).  I had to switch to kibble for the dogs, except for one that my hubby is taking care of because I don't want to stop her diet.  But it only takes a few seconds to whip up the Feline Instincts (the cat version of this), divide it in bags, and throw it in the freezer.

Then you can use whatever meat you want.  Pork comes to mind as a novel protein.  Or, as folks have said, fish cold be used with these diets.

 Petcurean makes super food.  Here's the ingredients for the Salmon product:

Salmon Meal, Salmon, Oatmeal, Whole Oats, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols (vit. E), Oat fiber, Inulin (FOS), Mannanoligosaccharides (MOS), Yucca Schidigera,

The FOS/MOS is really important for a dog struggling with immune-related symptoms.  That was another thing I was going to mention.  Not only do you need to consider his allergies from the standpoint of prevention, but also think about building his system so there's less inflammation going on.

The FOS/MOS are digestive aides.  They build a strong gi system.  The gi is your dog's first defense against invasion.  If his gut is irritated, then many times the "bucket" will instantly go right to the top.  Oat fiber also helps with this - it's another "prebiotic."

Next you want anti-inflammatories.  Studies show that the most effective "home remedy" available for inflammatory skin conditions is a combination of high quality fish body oil, and either borage seed oil or evening primrose oil (both have been used in studies that I've read).  The fish body oil is a must though.  Because you'd be using it therapeutically, you'd want a really high quality brand that actually has decent levels of the "good stuff" you need - EPA and DHA - and also is pharmaceutical grade which means it' been tested free of heavy metals and handled to avoid spoilage.

The fish oil has something called omega 3 fatty acids in it.  Omega-3s help keep allergic reactions from happening because the fatty acids fit in the little slots that open up when the body senses "danger."  When the slots are filled with omega-3s, it tricks the system into thinking there is no problem.  It's actually a bit more complicated than that, but that's the jist of it.

So it's important that you give your dog omega 3s every day - and enough to keep it available at all times.

We keep saying fish oil because that's the form that dogs can use most easily.   But you wouldn't be tempted to give your dog something like flaxseed anyway.  I was in the same boat with Ben.

When you supplement with oil of any kind, you need to also make sure your dog is getting supplemental vitamin E as well.  Most fish oils have it already (it's called tocopherol) but if you find one you like that doesn't, you just need 100 mg of E per 10 kg of dog, but no more than 400 mg per day for any size dog.  For the oil, you need to find one that provides 1200 mg of EPA + DHA for a 30 to 50 pound dog - that's not milligrams of fish oil, but milligrams of the fatty acids, which will be much less for most products.  You'll find as you look at labels that you could go broke trying to meet that requirement with some formulas.  Many only have 300ish mg of EPA and DHA total per serving - which then might turn out to be two or three capsules!!  I like Seapet Gold because it doesn't take a bunch to meet the therapeutic levels. 
 

As a snack, I do give Jake fish based kibble.  He used to eat Go Natural by Petcurean, but I always received expired bags, so stopped ordering it.  He is now eating Taste of the Wild, salmon.  Just as a little snack.  The only thing I worry about with the fish based meals is ethoxquin.  The vendor of taste of the wild could preserve the fish with ethoxquin according to someone I talked to at this company.  But they told me it would be killed when they cook it at 240 degrees.  I don't think I feel comfortable with fish and want to give him another kibble for a snack because of fish being preserved with ethoxquin.

 Michelle