Is it Ethical for Veterinarians to Recommend Pet Foods?

Frankly, there was a time when I lived way out in the middle of nowhere where I could buy either Purina or Ol' Roy for my Walker. I chose Purina becaues that's what our dogs all ate. And then my vet, the only vet in town, told me she needed Science Diet because at least it didn't have a bunch of dyes (she was allergic to dyes). I bought that from her, the only vet in town, and the only "specialty pet store" around, and we used it for years.

I'm grateful for having had that opportunity. Because of it my dog didn't have to suffer allergy issues. What would I do now? Well, a whole lot of different things, but at least changing to Science Diet was better than giving her steroids.

Frankly, I'd rather there is more discussion on nutrition and not just on reactive medicine. For both people and pets. My word, our society is huge and we have all sorts of issues related to obesity and yet doctors are still not addressing it. Science Diet isn't great, but learning about dyes was a big step up for me, a first-time dog owner (as an adult). Our pets all ate Purina from the grocery store and I followed suit--until my vet at least pushed me toward a differnet food choice.

And now? I'm pretty darn picky with my dogs, and have become more so with me, too. I needed that initial conversation in order to get to where I am now.

That said, I feel very confident discussing nutrition with my conventional vet. Trust me, I held nothing back when she suggested a certain brand/type of food for my OA dog. Again, having an initial conversation, yaers ago, has only prompted me to start thinking more about nutrition.

There should be more conversations between vets and owners. We all know nutrition and exercise are THAT important to living your best life. Why not be more open about it all?

 

In the same way the dog food companies drop information into the stream of vet school education that reinforces several concepts:

1. People are incapable of feeding their pets without the pet food companies' help.
2. Pet food companies are experts on pet health, particularly with regard to nutrition
3. The ingredients in any commercial diet are there to promote optimum health, not expand anyone's bank account
4. Vets can help their clients by steering them towards "superior" foods like Pedigree, Euk, Purina and Hill's.

Companies still push their products, but many of the "seminars" they provide to students are more about generalized nutritive care of disease. There was a great osteoarthritis nutrition seminar here a bit ago sponsored by Royal Canin and some diabetes ones by Hills They just drop their own name a lot. And the vast majority of my classmates are well aware of the product pushing (it's actually a bit of a joke - we're not dumb and we know they're trying to get their foot in the door). Based on what I see in school, I'm excitedthat the newer generation of vets are going to be much more "nutritionally educated" Right now though, things are still very "knee-jerk" - your dog has xxx? Use this food and nothing else! Blah.

Actually, on this last point, it may be possibly true that vets do their clients a favor by at least getting them to think in that general direction.  Making the connection between "better" food and good health is, after all, the first step towards becoming aware of the really great choices out there now.

What I'd wish to see, if vets aren't going to get training in applied nutriton beyond what I've seen evidence of:

1. Recommendations to a nutrition expert in conjunction with conditions that typically respond to nutrition (metabolic, organ failure, allergies)
2. As above, recommendations of general types of foods that might be appropriate rather than just checking out the client with a bag of what the office "happens" to sell
3. Making it clear that they stock particular foods because they are personal favorites, or the ones they can get for the best price, or whatever - rather than implying that it's the best food possible for every individual dog

I absolutely agree with all of that. Recommending foods is fine, but you need to give the owner information and options. Explain why you like a food, or why a food would be good, instead of just saying "take this".

whtsthfrequency

*slowly unruffles feathers*    I'm assuming that "t" is an "n"... Generalizations and assumptions are poor arguements.

I have a sneaking feeling that if everyone's vets recommended Eagle Pack or Innova, no one would have a problem with the fact that they were recommending food brands.

Yes...of course the "t" is an "n."

My opionion as stated was that if a vet is going to recommend a food they should stand behind it. Whether its EP, Innova or SD.  Not because he is going to get a commission for selling it. Of course if he uses it, believes in it and sells it,  he deserves the commission for it.

I'm naturally not a vet, but I like EP and would recommend it, but its because I believe in it.  A vet has that responsibility to do the same, not what a food sales person suggested.  Going back to Tiger Woods...he uses endorses Nike...and he uses Nike. The assumption is that he plays well with Nike...maybe we will play well with Nike.   Kind of the same thing, if the vet recommends it,,,it will be good for my dog. 

Prescription diets excluded.  I agree with you Lori...as bad as the ingredient list looks on the prescription diets...they so seem to help the patients..and many of them eventually try to get off of them because of cost....and find that their pet goes back to having trouble..so then must get back on.

All that said...I have never had a doctor sell or recommend a food outside of the canned prescription food that she recommended for Bubblegum when she had pneumonia and refused to eat anything.

 My opionion as stated was that if a vet is going to recommend a food they should stand behind it. Whether its EP, Innova or SD.  Not because he is going to get a commission for selling it.

I apologize if I misinterpreted, it sounded as if you said by definitions vets knew nothing about nutrition by definition based on your personal experiences "they have no knowledge about food...so they don't know any better either".

And vets do NOT get "commissions" for selling food....that's an old myth that really should be defunct by now. Maybe, maybe, raaarely if you have an unethical vet and a sleazy salesperson, but it is NOT, I repeat, NOT standard practice and is actually dancing around the rules of veterinary ethics.

No clinic I have worked in has ever gotten these mythical "kickbacks". No teaching hospital I have worked at has, either. Students can get it at a discounted rate (as they can Cali Natural, Purina, Iams, Innova, etc), and that is a far as any sort of thing goes.

whtsthfrequency

I apologize if I misinterpreted, it sounded as if you said by definitions vets knew nothing about nutrition by definition based on your personal experiences "they have no knowledge about food...so they don't know any better either".

And vets do NOT get "commissions" for selling food....that's an old myth that really should be defunct by now. Maybe, maybe, raaarely if you have an unethical vet and a sleazy salesperson, but it is NOT, I repeat, NOT standard practice and is actually dancing around the rules of veterinary ethics.

I think you did misinterpret what I said. But its okay.....I really did say "as long as they stand behind it" right from the get go.

I am glad to know that vets are learning more about nutrition and all in school...and only heard otherwise from people on the dog forums not at all by my personal experience. As I said...no vet I have gone to has sold pet food.   I do know that the food companies are like the drug companies....giving "sales lunches" once every few months or so.    But have read about the food and/or drug companies that buy books and programs and all sorts of things for the vet schools...of course have no knowledge if that is true or not....only people in the schools would know that for sure.

But as far as getting commission for selling food in the vet practice.....I was assuming that the vet clinic would be just like any other bussiness..in that they purchase so many bags of food at one price and up that price and make a profit. Of course in that way I guess that would not be commission...so maybe I mean profit.       I wouldn't assume that the clinics would set aside an area that they could probably use for their own...for food display...and pay someone to keep and eye on it...order more when needed.....without making a profit.

dyan

I am glad to know that vets are learning more about nutrition and all in school...and only heard otherwise from people on the dog forums not at all by my personal experience.

Yes, all the young vets Willow has seen have not been idiots about nutrition.  Now, I think some people take things a little too far.  If a vet says Iams is fine for a dog, well then they know "nothing" about nutrition.  I don't think that's the case.  I say this because I've had vets who would say oh, Science Diet and Iams are fine and also say Innova and Wellness are fine too.  They aren't going to necessarily try to get you to change to what most here consider a "better" brand if they don't see a reason.  The impression I've gotten is Brand A meets the nutrition requirements so it's fine and so does Brand B. 

The rest of all of this is just personal preference. 

Vets probably say any given food such as Iams or Purina or whatever are "FINE" because they ARE!  Theyre not Kibbles and Bits like someone said, and theyre not the best... are they "fine"... sure.  Now I bet if you asked a vet about the Wal Mart foods they would suggest a better one.  If you ask my vet about Innova she thinks its good.  No, shes not a nutrtition expert but I think she a freaking expert on everything else!  I know no one knows everything, but she knows as close to everything about animals as Ive ever seen (close to Callie) lol.  Anyway, my work sells the prescription stuff and honestly we use it on our patients a lot and they do not get kick backs or make a big profit.  How much do you think a vet would go in the hole trying to treat hundreds of patients with the best most expensive food?  I mean sometimes its just not feasible.

Someone told me a long time ago that our Urinary SO was cheaper than she could find anywhere on the internet.  

Some vets probably do get a kickback... some dont.  But what do you suggest they do for a dog with urinary or whatever tons of other problems? Tell the owner who is broke to go buy a top of the line food?  You know, and its just cause I see it all too often at work... sometimes I feel good that the vet gets them to feed that stuff instead of Ol Roy or something... and it takes a lot of convincing for some people!  And no, not everyone is willing to change their ways because I tell them they will feed LESS of the better stuff.  A lot of people just dont see it...

Theres good and bad in everything :) 

 

loveukaykay

I know no one knows everything, but she knows as close to everything about animals as Ive ever seen (close to Callie) lol.  Anyway, my work sells the prescription stuff and honestly we use it on our patients a lot and they do not get kick backs or make a big profit.

HAha,,,,that was pretty cute about Callie!!!

I work for a vet...we do not sell the prescription food at all ( nor any other food ) but we do write prescriptions for it for a pet that needs it.

Its so very expensive, some formulas worse than others.   A couple of months ago the girls were repricing it....and some of the bags went up $10 a bag.  Its very bothersome to know that....we're spending so much money at the vet trying to get our pets better...and RC or Hills raises their prices that much.  Gee....feeding a Great Dane makes you think about things like that.

I had a cat in early renal failure and his vet insisted on Wellness. I'm not a huge fan of Wellness, so I found another brand that had the exact same nutritional values and she STILL insisted that I use wellness, and buy it from her.  She wasn't my vet for long.  That sort of attitude is what I object to.  It wasn't a perscription food and I don't like anyone ramming something like that down my throat.

 Ah hah I see what you mean. Yes, there is a (very small) profit margin, but there are profit margins on all vaccines, antibiotics, etc - everything.  TBH the "income" from food sales and medications isn't very much - 90-100% of income is from actual visits/procedures/everything else. Ir's a tiny supplement at best and it's really no different than a human doctor (the human pharmacy you get it from marks it up, just as the veterinary pharmacy -ie the clinic- marks things up)

Yeah, food companies do the whole free lunch and free pens and discounted food thing for students - but the average smart kid knows their agenda. we're under no illusions. There are many more choices now and there's been some great nutritional research so the tide is changing. I don't have a problem with food companies doing things for students because most of the time (in my experience) they do their "seminars" on something very relevant. Hills does one on diabetes, Merck-Merial on west nile virus, Royal Canin and Purina on osteoarthritis etc - its much more "useful" information and less product pushing. I think there has really been a backlash and they know they cannot push their stuff so heavily because of public (and veterinary) nutritional education.

My vet carris sd and rc prscriptions, and possibily others, i do not know.  when i could not get weight LayCee after 11/2 years of bad knees, surgeries, recovering time weight gains, he fnally sugged we try the SD r/d.  We had tried other stuff frst.  Well, he r/d got the eight off and in over 5 years she never put it back on.

 when 10 year old Buck developed hs first kidney infection and had "trash" in is urine, my vet put him on SD k/d "for 3 months".  his problem cleared, and he never had any more porblems in his last 2 years.    My vet hs never sggested any of the foods he carries to me other than presctiption foods twice--in 14 or 15 years of beingmy vet.

someone said about learing about nurition on dg boards instead of  from the vet.  well, it supect tere are millions and millions of dog owners who do not belong to forums or baords  only know what they see on tv and hear from their vet.  and many of tem probaly do ask theirvetif ol roy or wpurina is best.  in cases like this i think a vet shou recommend a food.

The vet I used to go to made specific food recommendations.  At the time I was feeding Nutro Ultra, and when I told the vet this, he made a disaproving face and said I should really be sticking with the big companies like Iams/Euk or Science Diet as they are better quality. Now that I think is totally unethical due to the fact there is absolutely no evidence, whether scientific or antecdotal, that this is the case.  My current vet is ok with me feeding any brand as long as my dog is doing well on it (although I have yet to bring up the fact that one of my dogs is on raw!).  I have no problem with vets recommending foods if they are asked for recommendations by the client, although I don't agree with what most of them would recommend.

whtsthfrequency

 but there are profit margins on all vaccines, antibiotics, etc - everything.  TBH the "income" from food sales and medications isn't very much - 90-100% of income is from actual visits/procedures/everything else.

 

Okay, since you are a future vet, tell me what you think about this....

if 90 to 100% of the income is from actual visits/procedures/antibiotics and etc..., what are the incentives for vets to recommend foods that are better for the health of the dogs instead of the average "just fine" foods like those containing common allergens  (to most dogs...not all dogs) like corn, wheat, and soy and also preservatives and food coloring?  Healthier dogs = fewer visits = lower income.

I would like to think that my vet would want my dog to be healthier and not require as much antibiotics, not having to visit her too often, and etc..etc.  However, I think there are vets out there who think more about generating income than the actual well being of the dogs and that really bothers me (as much as people mistreating animals).  I hope my comment here is not upsetting anyone.  

Okay, since you are a future vet, tell me what you think about this....

I'm not a a small animal "future vet"..:) ......I'm on the "food animal herd health/research vet" side. But it doesn't really matter, I guess, except that I won't have to deal with the dog food drama in a practice ;) thank God!

If 90 to 100% of the income is from actual visits/procedures/antibiotics and etc..., what are the incentives for vets to recommend foods that are better for the health of the dogs instead of the average "just fine" foods ........ Healthier dogs = fewer visits = lower income.

Right, vets are purposefully trying to make pets sick so they can take your money.   That is seriously laughable. Happy people with healthy dogs are likely to be returning clients for normal things (annuals, vaxes, grooming etc) and things like old age issues, emergencies, HBC, fights, lacerations, any idiopathic organ problems, etc. They will recommend you to their friends "my vet keeps my dog so healthy!" and you gain more clients. 

People whose dogs keep on being sick are likely to leave you and try someone else. Of course vets want to retain clients - you LOSE money if all your clients are unhealthy, because the owners get fed up and go to another clinic!

The answer as to why a few older vets adamantly push certain foods is twofold and have been touched on already - ten/twenty/thirty years ago, vets were NOT getting the improved nutrition training they are now. They believe that these foods ARE the healthiest. Two, very few companies showed any interest in making their products available to students or established vets  (i.e. "getting the word out";). They kept to themselves and the "holistic" circle which has only recently gone mainstream. These other vets I mentioned recommend the"just fine" foods because they were taught these foods were the best and were literally not exposed to ANY others unless through their own pets or through friends.

And considering the literal tidal wave of other information fed to them (and us now) through a fire hose connected to their ear (the number of classes I take, time I spend in surgery or in labs, etc is seriously alarming at some points), nutrition was only a small subject. But it has definitely been moving up.

 

 

 I have no problem whatsoever with my vets selling food, it's their practice and they are entitled to make money.  I need them to make money so that they stay open and I continue to have a vet with excellent opening hours that is 5 minutes away. 

As for recommending food, I'm not sure how I'd feel about that since my vets have never tried to recommend food to me - they see that Ben is healthy and well-cared for and I suppose they assume he's doing fine on the food he eats, but they've never asked me what that is.  If he had some specific health issue that could be related to diet, I have every faith that they WOULD ask me what he eats so I don't consider that they have never asked me to be any kind of mark against them.  

On a grand scale, I suppose it is "unethical" in the true sense of the word for any expert in any field to recommend a product or service from an area they haven't studied intensely unless they have some kind of personal experience with the product or service.