Need calcium help with homecooked

So last night while doing other things...I baked 5 lbs chicken leg quarters, 3 labs ground beef and brown rice.  Mashed a can of carrots, thawed frozen chopped mustard greens, and threw in some baby food veggies.   After cutting up the chicken off bones I realized I needed something else so cooked some oatmeal.    In the end...I have 7 three cup ( thats what I think he needs per feeding ) containers....and didn't get to bed until after 1 am....and THAT is with leaving the dishes to drain after washing them.   HHHmmmm a lot of work for 7 feedings. I can't imagine not having the BilJac for the other feeding.

This morning though, I gave him one of those containers with a raw egg on top complete with the shell.  

Does anyone know how many egg shells a dog might have to have per meal?  

It's not per meal - it's according to how much calcium you are going to need to supplement in the meal.  A whole large egg is about 1/4 tsp of powdered shell and between 1000 and 1200 mg of elemental calcium.

  Dyan; you can weigh the meat after cooking it and add 250 milligrams of calcium for every three and a half ounces of meat. You can find NOW brand calcium citrate and calcium carbonate at health food stores; either type is fine. Keep in mind that grains can have phosphorus too so the calcium/phosphorus ration may still not be balanced. Do you know how much calcium Gibby needs; the requirement for puppies is different than adults and it's crucial that he gets the right amount; not too much or too little.

jessies_mom

Do you know how much calcium Gibby needs; the requirement for puppies is different than adults and it's crucial that he gets the right amount; not too much or too little.

I do not know what Gibby needs.....and I do know how important it is to feed the correct nutrients. Which is why I probably won't feed home cooking onlyl. Perhaps down the road when he is no longer a puppy.

Right now I am screwing something up in my venture for helping him.  I can tell that he has either lost weight or has grown and is not eating enough to go with it.  He looks skinny again..and I am not liking this at all.   Then...to make matters worse.... I am being stupid.  The amout to feed BilJac is on the bag...says 80 - 120 lbs 4 to 6 c daily.  So I'm figuring he weighs almost 80...so I will feed him the 4 c. which would be 2 c per feeding.   However, because he is a puppy and wont' weigh 80 lbs as he grows....I should not be feeding him the amout for 80 lbs which is probably why he seems to be thinning out.   I am feeding him TONS of food it seems...and he is getting thinner.  So I think the moral of the story is, I am not going to consider only home cooking at this point......his needs are more than I can take a chance to provide for.  I THINK I am happy that I got him off the kibble ( even though I really believe in Eagle Pack ) and will try to keep him off of it....but I have to figure out how much home cooked and BJ to feed him.    Last two days I gave him 3 C ( per feeding ) of BJ but that is in addition to added cottage cheese,,and/or yogurt.......and home cooked he gets 3 cups ( per feeding ) which is almost all meat with veggies added and some brown rice/or oatmeal.   But he still gets cottage cheese/yogurt to go with that too.   He also used to get more treats because of training...that he doesn't get that much anymore, so I want to try to get him more treats that are not empty calories.  I will see this week if upping everything makes a difference and then work from there.

One key to any type of feeding if you've got something of a "hard keeper" - start matching kcals he NEEDS to kcals you GIVE.  Then you are no longer guessing.  Even with the homecooked stuff - figure that in too.  Forget cups.  Go by calories.  Good luck!

brookcove

One key to any type of feeding if you've got something of a "hard keeper" - start matching kcals he NEEDS to kcals you GIVE.  Then you are no longer guessing.  Even with the homecooked stuff - figure that in too.  Forget cups.  Go by calories.  Good luck!

Thank you! 

I guess I just don't have time to do all this right now.....I always knew that if I couldn't put 100% into feeding home I would not do it.........so I really shouldn't have started this now, because I can not put 100% into it at this time.   Spending all the time buying and cooking is taking up a lot of time...and now I am finding that I need to probably put double that into figuring what I should be doing.

I am at a total loss right now.  Poor Gibby!       But I'm not going to let him starve.

IT really shouldn't take that long and you only have to do it once, as long as you keep doing the same thing.

This isn't aimed at you to try to pressure you into keeping at this, since I sense you are feeling a bit overwhelmed.  Just for anyone "listening in" and thinking, "Yeah!  I'm having the same problem!" 

Figure out how much kibble you are feeding per day.  Weigh it.  Multiply that times seven.  Convert it to Kilograms (if it's not already kilos) and jot that down. 

Find out how many kcals are in a kilo of THAT food.  Do the ratio.  "If there are X kcals in a kilogram, then there are X kcals in (for instance) 2.5 kilograms."  Jot that down.  That's how much kcals in KIBBLE you are feeding in a week.

Now you do have to do a little research.  Weigh out the ingredients, separately of the recipe you are making up for a WEEK's worth of food.  X grams of meat, X grams of rice, X grams of etc, etc.  Leave a space next to each ingredient as you list the ingredient and the amount.

Now go to nutritiondata.com and plug in each ingredient.  Select the best match from the lists you get when you search, and then select "100 grams" from the serving size drop down menu.  Don't forget to do this each time! 

You'll get the kcals (same as "calories";) for 100 grams of that ingredient.  Now plug the amount for the week into that ratio and you will have how many kcals that ingredient contributes to the week's total.

Continue for everything you feed for the week, including any snacks, training treats, etc.

Ted's weekly total is 10,425 kcals.  That's probably similar to what you'd be feeding Gibson.  To get to that total, it takes:

• 900 g of beef heart meat
• 800 g chicken thigh meat (boneless)
• 18 oz canned salmon
• 450 g pork rib
• 450 g lamb
• 300 g cottage cheese
• 8 eggs
• 170 g pork kidney
• 500 g oatmeal
• 300 g sweet potato
• 250 g zucchini
• 1/4 cup wheat germ
• And a few other odds and ends.
  

 Ted's obviously my biggest eater, even including any of the LGDs.  So believe me when I say I feel your pain when you are cooking up gigantic amounts of stuff.  You should see my kitchen on Monday nights!

Continue for everything you feed for the week, including any snacks, training treats, etc.

I forgot to finish my thought here.  Add everything together and you've got a total for the week.  Ted's is 10,425.  YOu now also know where all the calories are coming from.  If Gibson were apparently losing weight, you could decide looking at your new chart, whether it would be easier/more effective to up his kibble, or his carbs, or his protein, or add something else.  If he needed to trim off a bit, you could again figure out whether it would be best to reduce the carbs, the fat, the protein, or his kibble.

Every other nutrient is recorded the same way.  If you were nervous about absolute calcium levels or the ratio of calcium to phophorus, you'd plug that information in the same way, compare it to whatever ideal you have, and make any adjustments needed with confidence.  No guesswork. 
 

brookcove

Every other nutrient is recorded the same way.  If you were nervous about absolute calcium levels or the ratio of calcium to phophorus, you'd plug that information in the same way, compare it to whatever ideal you have, and make any adjustments needed with confidence.  No guesswork. 
 

    The problem is that Gibby is not only a puppy but a large breed puppy which is why it's so important to have the right amount of calcium in his diet.   http://www.eaglepack.com/Pages/EP_PetHealth.html#lgnt;

SCIENCE AND RESEARCH...AND EXPERIENCE
In Formulating Large and Giant Breed Diets

In 1990 we were presented with the statistical results of a national survey conducted among owners of 3,000 large and giant breed dogs.  The survey focused on three bone growth problems; HOD, OCD, and Pano, and was conducted by professor/breeder and canine consultant Linda Arndt of Blackwatch Kennels.  Armed with this data, results of feeding trials and the knowledge that a leading text, "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition III", lists these three problems under nutritional issues, and not under genetic diseases, we set out to develop the first formula specifically for large and giant breed puppies and adult dogs.

A Formula Is Born
The key to the correct formulation in our researched opinion was to create a highly digestible diet, then balance digestibility and protein (amino acid) levels with metabolizeable energy, calcium and phosphorus levels.  The challenge was to provide balanced growth of skeletal structure, cartilage and muscle in the growing puppy and then to maintain the long-term wellness of the adult.

The Results
The diet was test fed extensively by Large and Giant dog breeders.  Puppies were fed the diet from weaning to 18 months of age.  There were no reported cases of the three bone problems.  Armed with these results, Large & Giant Breed Formula was introduced, and most recently Holistic Select^® Large & Giant Breed Puppy Formula.  Now, over a decade later, our success in maintaining the long-term health of these breeds has been outstanding.

Conflicting Research
Some research done in Sweden in the 1970's and touted today, suggests that protein levels are immaterial and that calcium levels are key with a calcium level of 0.8% as "optimum".  The test diet was a custom formula totally unlike any brand on the market then or now.  Ingredients were:  bloodmeal, casein, soybean flour, corn gluten meal, corn/potato starch mixture, tallow, soybean oil, sugar, cellulose, and vitamins and minerals.  Twenty five percent of the dogs fed the "optimum" calcium diet limped during the gaiting exam.  Other research states that calcium levels of 0.7 and 0.6% cause stress fractures.

Right.  My point was that if this information can be found for a puppy Gibson's age/growth potential, it's not scary, difficult or rocket science pluggin that into a diet plan.  The only issue is getting that information since it's not readily available like adult figures are. 

The information in that last paragraph actually doesn't quite make sense. 

calcium levels are key with a calcium level of 0.8% as "optimum".  The test diet was a custom formula totally unlike any brand on the market then or now.  Ingredients were:  bloodmeal, casein, soybean flour, corn gluten meal, corn/potato starch mixture, tallow, soybean oil, sugar, cellulose, and vitamins and minerals.  Twenty five percent of the dogs fed the "optimum" calcium diet limped during the gaiting exam.  Other research states that calcium levels of 0.7 and 0.6% cause stress fractures.

When constructing a diet plan, absolute values of nutrients are what is figured, plus ratios of certain minerals which interact with each other, are taken into account.  Percent of a nutrient - what, DM?  as fed? by weight?  by volume? - is only used on commercial packaging because it's convenient, like a PPM figure. I guess we could figure percent but it's my understanding that for health concerns absolute values as fed is the most important.

So, for instance, let's say Gibson is eating a diet of all raw meaty bones, or the current favorite "prey model" diet, with certain percentages of RMBs, muscle meat, and organ meat.  The "percentage" of calcium in the diet would be correct as it's fairly easy to balance a prey model diet in that way.  But absolute values for calcium would be ten to fourteen times that recommended for a puppy of his age and potential size at maturity.  So the diet might have 0.8% calcium, but we still need to ensure that any extras don't push up calcium levels into harmful limits.

My advice?  Hang tough with the kibble until Gib is an adult and then start again with professional help.  Besides designing a diet you can use with confidence, they can help mentor you through the logistics, teaching you how to take shortcuts and take some of the pain out of learning to homecook.   

Thanks so much guys.  I am keeping this information...and am going to work on it.  YOU guys have taken so much of your time to help me and I appreciate it so much....but right now I both don't have the time to do all this as fast as I think my dog needs me to.  With Thanksgiving this week and me wondering how I am going to get all I need to do done....I know that this isn't going to be the week.    I so want you to know that I am grateful for your help and feel bad that you take the time and I am not doing it. But please know that I am not doing it just yet.    I will.  

I guess I started this thing because the link that I put in is saying...just feed different things in the different catagories...such as meat, carb, viggies.....and in a week the dog will have everything it needs.   I guess that is why I jumped on it.  

So I am keeping this information...and doing what I can with what I have for now....and relying on BilJac frozen rather then kibble. I talked to the girl from BJ and I understand the digestability of BJ is just so much better than kibble..that at least its a start for Gibson.

brookcove

Ted's weekly total is 10,425 kcals.  That's probably similar to what you'd be feeding Gibson. 

Becca that is LESS than what I feed Bugsy now that he is eating less than ever.  Honestly Gibby is 80lbs at 7-8 mos old I would think he is easily in need of double that number.  He hasn't even hit the point where the ginormous puppy amounts start going backwards.

Dyan just like a kid in a growth spurt he will have times where he looks too slim and then fills out, over and over.  He might continue like that for another 7-8  mos and I don't think a male dane is done until about 3.  He will likely slow down between 12-18 mos but still change for many more.