Reality

misstrouble

I dont think putting it off any or forcing her to keep at it would make her 'enjoy' it anymore. If she's not comfortable about it, she's just not going to enjoy it - ever. I've been forced to do things, and my parents slacked off and let me do things my way/not do them - and I STILL don't enjoy it(years later). Showing just might not be her 'thing'. Maybe being a great agility dog is her 'thing'.

 LOL conformation showing for the dog is actually REALLY easy. Pretty much loose leash walking at a trot and standing while someone goes over them. Oh and eat some treats ;) There really is not much about it for the dog to dislike, unless as I mentioned the dog has issues with the environment (or of course, doesn't like strangers). Out of the the things you can compete in with your dog, conformation is the very least demanding.

 IME dogs who don't show well almost every case the dog disliked something environmental - other dogs, strangers, nosies, crowds, being under tents. Some of these things can be worked through with time and effort, some of them are much more difficult. Some dogs have certainly become soured on showing due to training methods used, even if the methods aren't "bad" in general. There is also a such thing as too much conformation class for some dogs. I have a bitch who shows perfectly but doesn't have much "oomph" to her. I blame it on my overdoing it with hour long conformation classes, conformation for her has become so routine that she doesn't see it as anything to get excited about.

 Either way, don't rush into spaying her. After time she may develop more attitude for the ring or you may decide after being involved with showing that you would like to breed IS. Talk to any number of conformation people and you'll undoubtably hear a lot of stories of them regretting have a dog altered.

 FWIW I have a bitch who doesn't show well although she does have both majors. She dislikes being in close quaters with strange dogs, which was made worse by couple bad training class incidents early on. She was bred twice and has produced quite well - out of 12 puppies, oldest being 3 she has three Champions (will likely be 5 when all is said and done) and multiple performance titled offspring. I do eventually plan to get her back in the ring for her last few singles, as she is already well on her way to qualifying for an ROM and will need to be finished to receive it. She also seems much better about things with maturity.

 Training issues arise no matter what venue you are participating in. Dogs in agility often have to be worked through fear of an obstacle at some point. Or work on speed through the weaves. Or hitting contacts. With obedience dogs, they always seem to give you at least one exercise that they don't want to perform properly that you will need to work and work at (and once you fix it, another always seems to take it's place). Some of agility/obedience/tracking/hunting/herding/conformation/fill-in-venue-of-choice problems can take months and months to overcome.

I thought the conformation showing was just for fun, not with the plan of breeding. In such a case, I don't think that spaying is necessarily a bad thing. In most homes, being new to showing, having two intact males and an intact female, while also having a young child would be a lot to handle. Doable? Of course. But why have a dog continuously go through seasons, and the rotating of 3 dogs to various areas during that time to prevent an oops, on the off chance that she might someday enjoy showing is kind of silly.

Just so this IMO very important point does not get lost...the bit on temperament from the IS standard. Most I have personally come across in the ring...project this very temperament...correct temperament for the breed is super important IMO. This breed is not supposed to be prone to timidity as gundog training can be a serious affair....and was more so when the breed was developed.

"The Irish Setter has a rollicking personality. Shyness, hostility or timidity are uncharacteristic of the breed. An outgoing, stable temperament is the essence of the Irish Setter. "

Just something else to consider.

rwbeagles

Just so this IMO very important point does not get lost...the bit on temperament from the IS standard. Most I have personally come across in the ring...project this very temperament...correct temperament for the breed is super important IMO. This breed is not supposed to be prone to timidity as gundog training can be a serious affair....and was more so when the breed was developed.

"The Irish Setter has a rollicking personality. Shyness, hostility or timidity are uncharacteristic of the breed. An outgoing, stable temperament is the essence of the Irish Setter. "

Just something else to consider.

 It also says:

"Coat
Short and fine on head and forelegs. On all other parts of moderate length and flat. Feathering long and silky on ears; on back of forelegs and thighs long and fine, with a pleasing fringe of hair on belly and brisket extending onto the chest. Fringe on tail moderately long and tapering. All coat and feathering as straight and free as possible from curl or wave. The Irish Setter is trimmed for the show ring to emphasize the lean head and clean neck. The top third of the ears and the throat nearly to the breastbone are trimmed. Excess feathering is removed to show the natural outline of the foot. All trimming is done to preserve the natural appearance of the dog."

When was the last time you saw a show IS with "moderate feathering", only "pleasing fringe on the belly and brisket" and trimmed to "preserve the natural appearance of the dog"? Beautiful as show IS are, something tells me they aren't bred for gundogs any more....

 You do bring up a good point though about temperament and dogs who "dislike showing" - often times the dislike stems from a temperament flaw such as a dog who is too soft or reactive. Still I would encourage that lily not be spayed ASAP, as people's mind and goals do change.

AgileGSD

Beautiful as show IS are, something tells me they aren't bred for gundogs any more....

That is the problem with so many breeds today.  They aren't bred for anything except a certain look.  Temperment should be paramount in many of the sporting and working dogs but it's not too often you see a good dual champion, especially in the breeds that are popular with the general public. 

AgileGSD

Still I would encourage that lily not be spayed ASAP, as people's mind and goals do change.

with regards to what? Showing? Because this is not a breeding dog. This is a bitch from a BYB as the op has posted before. Cycling can lead to pyometra and the risk goes up the longer you allow it. IMO it's better for Lillie not to have to worry about pyo, esp considering she is not intended for breeding by her owner. If she really wanted to show Lillie she could do so by registering with UKC as they often have classes for altered animals, and the pee wee/jrs are allowed to show altered dogs as well...Samantha might enjoy that.

Whoa!  Two intact show males will keep you busy... allow me to assure you of that, KLE! :o) lol  I only have one ... and he's a full time job.  I'm very much into proving breeding stock should not only be beautiful but proficient at what they were bred to do and have the temperament of a good pet. I'm sure you feel the same, particularly with the V since they are looking for true field dogs and the show dogs aren't as watered down as they are in a lot of breeds.

Anway, with my one SQ dog I'm doing tracking, obedience, agility and bird work.  That is a TON of work.  A *TON*.... and consistent.  I cannot imagine having two similarly aged dogs and proving them both in the ring and in the field/ob/etc.... let alone adding a bitch that would come into season.  I mean... you could very easily have vizsla/IS puppies.  Accidents happen ask any of the top breeders out there how many accidents they've had. Dogs are determined.  For my own peace of mind I would spay Lillie and do what Gina suggests find Juniors in UKC (which btw is a MUCH more relaxed, fun envirnoment particularly for a new handler, I think you'd really enjoy UKC, I certainly do! It's the only place I'm brave enough to show Logan myself anymore! lol)

You have so much going on.... why add the stress of a bitch in heat? Particularly if she's not interested in showing. As far as breeding agility stars I'm sure you could get some wonderful MACH's out of Joker... and if he matures well, correct conformations, too! (Conformation is very important in agility stars, too! :)

 Gosh Kle I think since you are just getting started with showing, having two dogs to work with would be enough for anyone nevermind someone with a toddler and another few dogs and other pets.  That is a lot of stuff to keep you busy.  If it were me, and as you have said Lillie isn't really breeding stock - (is she pretty? sure but that doesn't mean she should be bred) take a whole lot of worry out of your situation and have her spayed.

You have posted so many times about all the loose dogs in your area plus you would have two hormone crazed males with access to her - zowie - it only takes seconds and you have said Joker wants to escape for fun imagine what he would do to get access to a female???????????? 

Make your life simpler not more difficult so you can really focus and the males and since Samantha wants to show let her work Lillie in the juniors.

If I had a dollar for everytime I have been asked about breeding Bugsy because he is a stunner I would be a very rich woman - I never had to make that decision but I can imagine being tugged to thinking of not fixing him but the only decision is to do it.  It is being responsible and I am sure you want to be a responsible owner and if you are getting serious about dogs and showing and breeding you will not want to be irresponsible and potentially contribute to the overpopulation stats or reduce the quality of IS's by using a dog from a byb.

Sera_J

Anway, with my one SQ dog I'm doing tracking, obedience, agility and bird work.  That is a TON of work.  A *TON*.... and consistent. 

 

I'll second that. I have one SQ dog, and we do agility, obedience and conformation training at the moment. We are in class or training 5 days a week. I don't have time or money for herding ATM, so that will wait, but it is exhausting. I am constantly working Luna in small spurts so that all of these venues stay fun for her. However, I do know that she likes agility the best of all and so do I. After some of the low or mid-level obedience we will probably concentrate on agility as our main sport.

Conformation handling is harder than it looks. (At least for me!) I personally don't enjoy the handling in conformation, but I do like going to shows. Since Luna is co-owned by her breeder and may be bred at some point, so we are hiring a handler for a small show in December to see how she does with someone who isn't so green at the other end of the lead.

I agree that it would make life easier to spay Lily and focus on the boys. They'll keep you plenty busy! 

SPAY HER. SPAY HER NOW.

My friend arrived last night with a bitch that just came out of heat last week, so she still smells of juicy goodness. (in town for a show this weekend and staying with me)

OMG OMG OMG

Logan is insane and unstoppable. He cannot relax, he's constantly whining, barking, pacing, etc and generally trying to get to her and when he does he's instantly mounting her, she is not receptive, THANK GOD.  He is 16 months old and out of control.  I knew this would happen one day when he got a good wiff of a bitch in season but even then I got more than I expected.

Truly. I took him to bed last night, she was in the guest room, two doors between them and he stood at the bedroom door crying for ... i don't even know how long, pawing at the door.  As I type this, she's in the bedroom still and he's in his crate CRYING (I had to put him in his crate because he was scratching, lunging and jumping at the guest room door).  I told another friend what's going on and she said her male went through a door to get to a bitch in heat. 

Two of these with a bitch in season? O - M - G  Good luck and best wishes... glad it isn't me! :o)  lol

rwbeagles

with regards to what? Showing? Because this is not a breeding dog. This is a bitch from a BYB as the op has posted before. Cycling can lead to pyometra and the risk goes up the longer you allow it. IMO it's better for Lillie not to have to worry about pyo, esp considering she is not intended for breeding by her owner. If she really wanted to show Lillie she could do so by registering with UKC as they often have classes for altered animals, and the pee wee/jrs are allowed to show altered dogs as well...Samantha might enjoy that.

 BYB? And she is considered show quality in such a competitive breed? Not all bitches or even most develop pyo and I'm not saying to never spay her.

Sera_J

SPAY HER. SPAY HER NOW.

What Sera J said. Really, your situation is an oops! breeding waiting to happen. And even if you manage to avoid that, Sera J gave a very accurate picture of what you have in store if you don't have her spayed. Oh. Except you will have TWO intact males tearing doors apart to get to your in season bitch AND fighting with each other. Oh, and you have a child that could get caught in the cross fire. I'm not saying all this because I am anti-show or anti-breeding. I have shown dogs in a variety of venues. They have their own personalities, and while conformation training is not as complex as training, oh, say, a herding dog, it does require the dog have a certain type of personality. Even some friendly, sound, outgoing dogs just aren't wired to look all excited and animated just because you are waving a treat in front of their face. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the dog, anymore than there's anything wrong with people who don't make a big display of their emotions. But if a dog lacks that animation she doesn't have a successful conformation career in her future. Voice of experience. So, SPAY HER. SPAY HER NOW.

buster the show dog

Sera_J

SPAY HER. SPAY HER NOW.

What Sera J said. Really, your situation is an oops! breeding waiting to happen. And even if you manage to avoid that, Sera J gave a very accurate picture of what you have in store if you don't have her spayed. Oh. Except you will have TWO intact males tearing doors apart to get to your in season bitch AND fighting with each other. Oh, and you have a child that could get caught in the cross fire.

 The drama LOL. I have had intact males with intact bitches for over ten years and have not once had males tearing down doors or becoming savage creatures that would endanger children. We go through usually ne rough week when girls are in season. Rough meaning the boy gets vocal, whiney, needy, stressed and doesn't always eat well. Of course there are cases of males being destructive to get to bitches but it certainly is all or even most who have such an issue.

FWIW  Chlorophyll is widely said to be able to help mask the odor of bitches in season to males.

  "I want to make breeders aware of a product that is helpful when your girls are in season. Liquid Chlorophyll - 100mg which is found in a health food store is extremely helpful in masking season and urine odors. When the girls are in season I use 1 tablespoon A.M. and P.M. feedings (poured on the girls food) and this helps to mask the odor. I have found my males will usually continue to eat even when caged in the same room when a bitch in season as long as the girls are on chlorophyll from the first day of their season. You can use it in powdered form, pills or capsules and dose according to the bottle, for adult humans." http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/controlling_odors_when_your_bitch_is_in_season.htm

  Some breeds aren't expected to be "animated" in the ring. And being animated isn't everything - one of my best show dogs is a bitch who does her job in the ring but isn't terribly animated.

One thing to remember, though, is that this is a home familiar with spayed or single sex intact pets, not one familiar with keeping intact dogs of opposite sex/experienced show home. Homes familiar with this routine have the drill down.

This is a home where, it seems, one partner isn't that into dogs/showing, and there is a small child as well.  Having a female that is not intended for breeding intact 'just because' she may one day enjoy a sport that was meant for fun in the first place just seems silly.

I think, and perhaps I read wrong, that kle is doing showing because for fun, not because she wants to breed the dogs. If that's the case, the two boys should be loads of fun in that venue for her. Spaying Lillie would eliminate having to separate half the pets twice a year.

And raising two pups at the same time will be work in and of itself :p

AgileGSD

FWIW  Chlorophyll is widely said to be able to help mask the odor of bitches in season to males

Yes and so is Vick's or vanilla under the nose and numerous other things. I have heard just as many say THEY DON'T WORK.

Animated? have you SEEN a setter ring LOL. Obviously, not. You also are confusing non-animated with CRINGING.

The mind boggles.

You house...is not kle's house...your set up...is not hers. I am really wondering that your understanding of the situation is at this point. The OP has shared MANY issues with us in past that lead us to feel the way we do....perhaps you were not present for those, Again...the mind boggles.