For those with hyper dogs..

Couple questions for you.....What's the diatomateous earth do? How much does Martini weigh and how did you determine a portion size?Also,other than the obvious chocolate and junk food,is there a short list of foods to never include and foods to limit?

Tena

Tena, 

My dog is about 30lbs.      

I use food grade Diatomateous earth for internal parasite control (tapeworms, hookworms and whipworms).  I add just a little pinch to food everyday or when I remember. I don't like using wormers from the vet.  Plus they claim that DE contains 15 trace minerals; calcium, magnesium, iron, zinc, copper, potassium, etc. I also add crushed eggshell to her food for calcium.

First off I would join online groups that do homecooking for their dogs, they have years of experience and tons of info and they share all their recipes in posts.

I don't think that you need to make homecooking complicated as long as your feeding variety of foods in the long run. Each dog is different and you can tell by their condition from what foods they would benefit most. Having just one dog helps                                                       

Some do better on grain free diet, bland diet, or one protein one carb diet. My dog is not allergic to anything yet, so I do give her pieces of bread with her meals and sometimes I add anything I can find around the house like left over cabbage leaves or maybe a little lasagna,lol.  I always try to make meat 50% or more of her meal. If I run out of meat I just give her something else that day, no biggie. My dog is doing great so far even with all the weird left overs I give her,lol.

As for the foods to avoid, I think people have posted on this. Lets see......grapes, too much onion or garlic( I think small amounts are OK), too much fried oily foods(pancreatitis),  spicy foods,    and foods that cause gas. That's all I can think of right now.  Even if you make mistakes on what your dog can and shouldn't have you quickly learn from it and it's still better then feeding them Petsmart kibble.

Just wanted to add something about portion size. Personally I wouldn't worry too much about it unless you have a dog that's too obese or too skinny.  You can always find the portion size for dogs info for different foods online(sorry don't have the link right now).    Because I've just started 2 weeks ago I only give enough to fill her stomach which would be about 1cup, twice a day.   If I see her losing or gaining weight I will read more into it and will adjust accordingly.

Ted's on a combo diet (raw with cooked stuff added balanced with supplements) and a few weeks ago I had his diet checked by our nutritional consultant.  She made a couple of tweaks to it.  I don't think it's a coincidence that Ted suddenly grew a brain in the last few weeks.  A good diet can't replace good training, but it can give a dog that's right on the edge of a breakthrough that extra edge to expand his or her mental resources.  I don't know whether that makes sense!  lol

that's how dogs used to be fed before the pet food companies somehow managed to convince everyone that dry lumps is somehow better than real food.

 Is raw and homecooked the same???

I have seriously started thinking about switching my dogs over to raw/homecooked. I have noticed with Lillie that as long as I give her neck bones,chicken,some kind of real meat everyday she seems to keep a little weight on. So I really want to throw out the kibble and try raw/homecooked food. And if Im gonna do that then I am gonna switch everyone to it. I wont expect the others to eat dry kibble when Lillie is getting the good stuff!!

I havent really tried it because I was afraid of the cost. But I am willing to spend whatever as long as I get results and so far with kibble I am not getting any results with Lillie's weight. Plus I am afraid to mess up their nutritional needs!!

How would I go about feeding 2 55lb dogs and a 20lb pup that will be 45+lbs when adult? Kujo is 2lbs so I will just keep her on kibble. Lol.

I am really seriously thinking about putting both of my dogs on either homecooked or raw diets.  Actually, I've been thinking about it for a long time, but that's all I've done is "think" about it.  I'm a horrible procrastinator, but I think I am finally ready to begin doing some real research.  ;)  I'm glad to hear it's working out so well for Martini!

Optimum Nutrition, by Monica Segal, is a good starting point for any homemade diet, I think. I'm seriously considering doing a consult and spreadsheet for Emma Nems. After reading about Becca's consults, I'm fairly certain that Emma is a little short, somewhere. When the puppy did badly on Emma's diet, and flourished on commercial food, I took that as confirmation.... Emma's diet needs a tuneup.

And AMEN! Emma's energy level has skyrocketed since I put her on fresh foods, but she is no longer hyper. She's very even, and her energy seems "clean". She's the calmest PRT around. People are always asking if she's a mix, because she just.... chills. It's great!

kle1986

 Is raw and homecooked the same???

One is raw and one is cooked and some folks swear that raw is far superior, but I think they're both better than canned or kibble. I just found that with two 75 lb dogs, it was too much and too pricey. I'd cook the meat in the crockpot on the weekends and then freeze it and add in all the other stuff as I fed it, but I just had this feeling that I was barely staying on top of it. I also didn't have the freezer space, so had I continued, we would've bought a small chest freezer. I do think it's much better though and when I retire, I'm definitely going to do it.

kle1986

Is raw and homecooked the same???

I would suppose RAW would be a little better for those dogs that can handle it just because it's digested more easily. And with raw organ meats you would be preserving their vitamin content by not cooking.

I've tried RAW when I first got Martini and I had a lot of problems with it. 

1. Hard to find a good butcher for the meat supply,    2. It's expensive especially for multiply dogs,   3. It's  messy and  inconvenient(have to thaw)

But all those reasons is not why I stopped feeding raw. For some reason Martini develop a urinary infection when I fed her a raw chicken leg from Walmart(that' s why you need a good butcher), I suspect it was salmonella and her immune system wasn't up to par to handle it yet since I switched her to raw suddenly.

After a week of raw feeding I just gave up. Martini started to pee puddles around the house and I had to buy all these supplements to get rid of it.  We went right back to kibble and that was it for the 1st try.

Then 2 weeks ago I had a lot of leftovers from our meals.    I homecook a lot for my family.    We don't do McDonald's or Burger King or go to restaurants much.     I've  started to slowly add these leftovers(all kinds of soup, lasagna mashed potatoes, ground beef, etc) to Martini's kibble and had no adverse reactions, but no difference since she still ate mostly kibble.    Then I spent a few days on line to see if I can completely switch her to homecooked.   She would be saving me money with all the left overs we threw away.                                                             

I was thinking about it like GypsyNBeau for some time, but for some reason I was afraid that it's not going to be as good as her kibble.     Boy, was I wrong!  I could see a difference in her energy, skin and bathroom habits in just one week of entirely homecooked and without any additional supplements beside raw eggs and veggies!   Even with super good kibble you can't see that much difference in just one week!                        

Just think about it, what is kibble?  It's basically some overcooked meat and other millions of junk they add to it. It's has no vitamins or minerals after being overcooked and over processed so they throw a bunch of synthetic vitamins in it, a few chemical and preservatives and you got your kibble. Why can't you just cook human grade meat at home and not add all that junk to it?  If you already cook for yourself it's nothing to spend just a few minutes to do it for your dog.

I would have never have posted so much if I wasn't thrilled with homecooking.     I'm too lazy to type for long.  My regular post are quite short if you noticed.   

 I just wanted to share with people my good results from my experience.    You don't know how happy I was with my little discovery of perfect poop   I was really surprised at first that homecooked can do that. I checked her poop every time and it's still perfect, it's been perfect for 2 whole weeks.

Just wanted to add that you have to supplement with calcium on homecooked. I use either crushed eggshells or meaty bones.

Raw and homecooked are exactly the same in terms of digestibility.  There are differences in handling, preparation, management with each but neither is inherently superior to the other. 

Raw offers many more nutrients naturally to the dog, than homecooked, simply because you can offer bones, where if you are cooking boneless meat you have to replace the nutrients normally found in bones.  These are for the most part minerals.  But, this shouldn't be a dealbreaker because you can easily and safely offer the nutrients through supplementation.

Cooking only changes or degrades EFAs (n-3s in particular) and vitamin E.  Both should be supplied anyway, in any diet, separately, I believe.  The body itself supplies the enzymes needed to digest the food its presented with.  The food provides building blocks to create those enzymes but it doesn't help the food already on deck, so to speak.  

Calcium is not the only nutrient that is usually lacking in homecooked and raw diets both.  In addition to the usual suspects I mentioned, (zinc, copper, manganese, iron if mostly poultry is used), choline is another extremely important nutrient that I've found to be low in every diet I've evaluated.  This can be supplied very easily, by including lecithin.  Choline is important in brain and nervous function.  Older dogs who don't get enough choline can show symptoms of cognitive dysfunction (doggy dementia). 

There's two approaches to home prepared diets.  One, the casual way, also known as "variety over time."  This works, I believe, for the vast majority of dogs because, heck, that's how they were made to eat.  Sometimes it doesn't work and now I wonder whether it's often from the dog being less able to tolerate imbalances for some reason.

The other way I believe improves on nature's way - taking the paradigm of natural food and balance over the long term, and simply ensuring that balance through having a plan and supplementing it where necessary to achieve optimum nutrition.  I went from the first way to the second because I realized three things:

• My dogs perform "on the edge" - you don't put diesel fuel into a formula 1 race car.  I want to give them every advantage I can.
• I spent a lot of time worrying and tweaking "just in case."  This way I have my plan and then I leave it unless something changes with the dog.
• Variety over time only works if you actually can get variety.  My dogs were eating a lot of the same foods - if the only source of zinc and choline was going to be ostrich pancreas, then they'd have a long time to wait on that!   They only got brain, a natural source of several vital nutrients, when I culled a sheep or at lambing time.  Was that enough?  I wasn't sure.
  

 Well Im gonna try to do the raw diet with Lillie.

Found out I have a butcher near me!!! Gonna go visit Friday and see what goodies I can get.

nataliem

It's so easy too,   I just buy a 2lb ground (sometimes beef, pork, chicken, or turkey) and brown it on the skillet, add some mashed potatoes and maybe some green beens or a tomato, mix it all up and put it the fridge.     That will last me a whole week.    Just scoop some on her plate add some warm water, olive oil or fish oil , tsp of eggshells, and Diatomaceous earth and that's it.   

Ha....that would last me about a day...perhaps 2.    

Gee...what kind of kibble were you feeding your dog. By your description of the results....I would want to make sure that I didn't feed it. 

brookcove

Cooking only changes or degrades EFAs (n-3s in particular) and vitamin E.  Both should be supplied anyway, in any diet, separately, I believe. 

I agree with everything you've outlined (not surprising, as I consulted with Monica in the past).

Just wanted to add that cooking also leaches out a proportion of the water-soluble vitamins - the same problem as for us humans really. I'm thinking of Vit B in particular. Unless your diet happens to have something like several times the NRC-required amounts of B vitamins (I would never manage that in a month of Sundays with our limited recipes), I tend to think a bit of extra B is a good idea. I take some myself, and the dogs lick their liquid off the spoon.

How do you get started putting together a plan?  I recommend signing up for the K9nutrition yahoo list and go in the archives.  There's files there that step you through putting together your own plan.  You'll have to purchase a few booklets and Monica Segal's Optimal Nutrition but they are well worth it.  Then if you still feel uncertain, a nutritional consultant like Monica or Mordanna can run the numbers for you.

 Umm ... just checking: I think you probably mean the K9Kitchen (Monica Segal's) Yahoo group (not K9Nutrition) ?

dyan

Ha....that would last me about a day...perhaps 2.  

 Well of course, you've got Great Danes!!!!!!

dyan

Gee...what kind of kibble were you feeding your dog. By your description of the results....I would want to make sure that I didn't feed it. 

I'm sure you've used them at least once, since a lot of people on this board like them.   She was on  Solid Gold(BATM, JustaWeebit, Hundchen flocken, Millennia,)   Canidae,  Proplan,   Natures Variety(potato&duck),   TOTW,   Natural Balance,   Castor and Pollax.                                

All these were fed at some time or another in the 2 years that I've had Martini.   I've basically tried everything that I can get around here. And I didn't see good result with any of them. 

dyan

By your description of the results

 My descriptions were about her being less hyper which I've noticed right away after the switch, and also her poop changed dramatically.              I know a lot of people especially on dobermantalk forum that I visit have the same problem with their dogs going to the bathroom 2 or three times during a walk and their last poops being mucusy, almost like yellow diarrhea.      I've always thought that it was normal since all the other dogs had it.      But when I switched to completely to homecooked the poop became small and solid(despite her meals being quite soupy), no more mucus.       And it wasn't just one brand of kibble, she had the same gross poop with all of them.       So I don't know what's in all the kibble that irritates a lot of dogs causing them to have mucusy poop? 

My whole family noticed these changes in Martini, especially about her poop (they hate picking up diarrhea).