Another Nutrition Question re: Performance Dogs

 Think of it this way - while riding the DALMAC, 80+ miles per day, you need some extra carbs and protein to keep you going. Otherwise you will "Bonk" - which means you lose all your energy and your legs feel like they weigh 500 lbs, you feel ill, etc. So, you take little energy supplements throughout the day, in the form of an energy drink, a snickers bar or energy bar, etc.

 This is probably what is happening with Teddi, at least. Especially because she is so lean. I would say what is happening with Belle is more along the lines of just mentally and physically being tired. Teddi on the other hand could probably use some additional boosts during those high activity days.

I've found with Neiko that I can't feed him regular old dog food. He has such a high energy need that he does best on Innova Evo or Total Performance - foods along those lines (high protein, high fat, high carb). Lily doesn't have the same requirements though so she does fine on regular stuff.

I also found with Neiko that giving him fish oil every day during that MSU study did seem to make a difference in his over all health. I'm not speaking of coat health, but physical health - he was leaner with more muscle. I'm going to start him back on fish oil again soon.

So look for foods in general with higher carbs and proteins? How much?

I don't think it is just tired for Belle. She isn't necessarily running the whole time. Maybe I am grasping at straws, maybe it is beyond boredom waiting for late classes. Belle is BEYOND fit. She can "run" 4+ miles basically without a break, actually a strong trot I am on the bike. We do actually run one day a week at the park about 2+ miles. I can't remember when the last time I saw Belle "tired". I am just wondering if higher something would keep her up too. When we go to trials she eats in the AM before we leave. There is more being burned than just physical burning of calories so I just wondered what people thought, maybe additional snacks would help her?

I have all my dogs on Derm Cap, which I believe has fish oil in it. Not sure enough it was recommended by a vet.

I am so confused  

 

I just went out and ran Ted in 100 degree heat for the third time today (darn sheep keep getting where they are not supposed to be).  One reason he can be raring to go any time of day, in any weather, is that he does it every day.  It would be helpful if you could get to where you are conditioning her close to the level that she'll be exerting on the weekends.  Not only physically, but mentally - play fetch games where she has to down on command or "stay" - or do directed retrieves.  Get her used to the combination of quick bursts of physical activity multiple times during the day, plus the higher level of mental stimulation.

I also feed him differently than any of the others.  He gets more carbs, plus little snacks through the day like the frozen raw cow hoof he's chewing on right now. 

There are two kinds of active exercise - endurance and sprinting.  In endurance, the dog is spending more energy, but not necessarily spending the brain power, and there are different types of muscles used.  Such dogs need huge amounts of protein and fat to keep going, plus carbs to maintain brain function while the protein and fat are being processed.  If they don't get the protein, their bodies start burning muscle to keep going.

If you are competing in sprinting type exercises, not only is the body burning energy in bursts, but the dog's brain is highly stimulated also, which results in a much higher metabolism than the endurance dogs (though sled dogs working in extreme temps ramp up the kcal requirements).  This means carbs are more valuable for competition.  But during the week, when you are conditioning, you want to feed a food with superior protein sources, and a high protein/fat ratio. 

If you like the food you are on, you can just add lean cooked chicken or other meat, and/or eggs to raise protein level - just don't go over 25% of the total food fed and you should be fine.  If the though of cooking makes you all icky inside , just boil a dozen eggs at the beginning of the week and feed one per dog, then the last day (the last day after a competition weekend) replace with yogurt.

I do think the energy bars are a good idea, but I also would encourage you to raise her tolerance for exercise and mental stimulation through conditioning.
 

 Belle is BEYOND fit. She can "run" 4+ miles basically without a break, actually a strong trot I am on the bike. We do actually run one day a week at the park about 2+ miles.

if you think this is fit, there is your problem. One day a week 2 miles? four miles? these are nothing to a really fit dog who can run for hours. Anyway, both of your events are "sprinting" explosive energy type events. You want a diet that is fairly high in carbohydrates maybe something like wellness core that has a moderate protein level, and you need to practice sprinting. Every other day at a minimum. Sprinting after a thrown ball or frisbee, build up to at least half an hour of all out sprinting sets full speed with short breaks in between.  Even better if you have time is take your dog out every two or three hours and practice sprinting for a few minutes, to simulate a day of trialing. Then you need to cross-train and add in the endurance and build muscle for explosive activity. Minimum five mile brisk trot at least three days a week. Muscle-building work- tugging, pulling weights, trotting up steep hills. Swimming. Jump grids. Pilates for the core muscles (yes dogs can do pilates).

 "Normal" is way too fat for an agility dog. She should be very lean. That could be part of the problem. Emma doesn't do agility or dock diving, but she competes in Rally and obedience. She just got to the point where she can hold her weight, and I've actually got her on a diet, right now. She looks *great*, but she's wearing out too fast. My goal, with her (a double coated Parson Russell Terrier), is to see 3-4 ribs from above. Right now, you don't see ribs unless she's stretched out. That's too fat for a dog who has to go all day.

 

Also, the building endurance ideas may help. Emma does much better now that she's a "working dog" and comes with me everywhere. She does obedience work for at least 3 hours a day, and spends hours focused on being calm (because.... she's a young PRT.... that's WORK!).  

 My dogs get out every day. I live in suburbia and there are not many hills around but...

Belle

Monday is agility class no time for anything else. Tuesday and Thursdays are 4+ mile walks, not "fast" enough for Belle but the best my short legs can do. Wed and Sunday, 4+ mile trot/run with me on a bike. Saturday is doggie fun day, we go hiking, swimming, playing all day long.

Teddi is currently coming off a soft tissue injury so currently we are on "low impact" but her "usual" work schedule is similar to Belles. Her walks are not as long yet, and she doesn't bike yet. I hope to get her biking over the winter when we have snow on the ground.

I also have a senior dog who walks 2+ miles 3 times a week, bikes about 3/4 mile 2 times a week and takes part in doggie fun day.

I am the primary person doing ALL the dog walking I only have so many hours a day after work. I leave at 6AM and get home around 5PM and I must be in bed by 10 or I can not function. I do the best I can. My vets have told me Belles weight is EXCELLENT so I have no reason not to believe them. Belle is down from 130 pounds. She is a BIG dog. I was asking about nutrition how to figure out what and how much. I knew I should not have asked.
 

 

 We answered you nutrition uestion in various ways, but we are also speaking as people who are heavility involved with performance dogs and just want yours to be the best possible.  I don't want you to be another one of those who goes hunting up a sport bred BC breeder because "my retrievers can't keep up."

A friend of mine is the captain of one of the midAtlantic's top flyball teams.  Their top team makes a run at the regioanl record every year, as well as the chapmpionship..   He was asked how he trains his dogs for a long weekend.  Power jumping?  Box work?  Ball drive exercises?  Power recalls?

No, he takes his dogs out several times a day to a place on his culdesac where he can throw the ball about 100 feet uphill.  His dogs take turns working that hill, all week, several times a day. That's it.  He believes that if the body and mind is conditioned properly and the basics have already trained, it will all come togehter on the lanes.

In sheepdog trailing, we say train above the level where you will want to complete. 

Maxs Mom

Teddi is currently coming off a soft tissue injury so currently we are on "low impact"

I was just thinking maybe if she saw an orthopedic for this injury they could advise you on all the dogs??  I know the specialist that Willow saw for her joints was very versed in canine sports nutrition, the appropriate diet and activities for her, etc.  That might be an option.

Also, there was this company that made this dog cookie called Carnivore Cookies--not sure if they are even still around it's been awhile, but they also made some other snacks for active dogs.    

PS--I also just saw that Natural Balance is now making a food for very active dogs.  That might be a more affordable option and easier to get than some of the other brands if you do decide to change. 

I can't help with the specifics like others here can because I don't have a dog in this type of activity.  But, thought I'd offer a few ideas anyway. 

Lori

 

 

Luke is also 27" and a lean 85 lbs, so I think Belle's weight sounds perfect.

How long have you been doing agility?  I found that it took a while for Luke to learn how to truly rest in the trial environment.  In the beginning he would be physically and mentally exhausted at the end of the day.  In NADAC we do six runs a day and by run five I could tell he was starting to shut down.

He's learned to sleep between runs at trials.  I put him in his crate between runs and LEAVE HIM ALONE.  I see a lot of people futzing with their dogs all day at a trial and often times those dogs are worn out by the end of it.

I also feed liver all day long after every run.  The high protein levels seem to help keep his energy up, and of course he thinks it was sent from heaven.  I've never tried an energy bar, but it would be worth a shot in your case.

 Belle is in great shape - that's not what I was implying. I have seen her so I know that she is pretty much perfect weight wise. What I meant was that because Belle is so conditioned (while Teddi isn't because of her surgery and such) that I suspect her tiredness has more to do with the mental stress of the event than lack of nutrtition. However, it wouldn't hurt to give her bits of stuff throughout the day during agility events.

Also, do you keep her crated until her event or let her out for walks and such? Redirecting her during the day from the chaos going on around her at an agility trial might help too.

 My vets have told me Belles weight is EXCELLENT so I have no reason not to believe them

is your vet a performance dog vet? if not I wouldn't believe him and would assume Belle's weight is perfect for a pet dog, which means too-heavy for sprinting events. The perfect weight for a sporting dog is sometimes described as "painfully thin" by the uninformed.

Why are you assuming the problem is one of nutrition? your exercise program seems heavily tipped towards endurance-type exercise. Great but if you need explosive sprinting you need to practice explosive sprinting. Luckily it's much easier to fit extra sets of explosive sprinting into the busy day than it is to fit in more endurance exercise. The two different exercises don't overlap much. Retrieving up hills for five minutes, repeated three times a day, may cure your problem.

Maxs Mom

The first couple events we took her to, about half way through the day I would notice her just shaking. Ok she is wet, and in these two instances it was "chillier", so I chalked it up to no body heat wrapped her in a towel or blanket. At the 3rd event it happened again, only this day was HOT! So then I wondered "could she be hungry?" At all three events she jumped like a house on fire earlier, and seemed "tired" later. Again not necessarily "odd" behavior. At the third event I went to find her food. It was a "fair" and the only food suitable to feed a dog was a grilled chicken sandwich. After about an hour (unfortunately after her last jump) she was up and raring to go. So that got me thinking I probably need to feed her differently.

Belle is an agility dog. She is 27" and weighs 85 lbs. She is obviously not as thin as Teddi, I would classify her normal. You can feel he ribs, and spine and see definition through her waist. However she too has considerably less "enthusiasm" at the end of the day than at the beginning. Could she be more subtle in telling me she needs more food too?

The questions are what should I be feeding at events? Their regular food, additional rations or something with more protein than usual?

     FWIW, this is my two cents on the matter ...

     When I run the hounds, it's usually an average of 3x weekly, not much, but they do go for 4-5hr stretches at a time, and they do get exercise during the week to keep them in condition. I want to see them have the majority of their bulk be pure muscle. There are some sporting dog people, especially with pointers and such, who keep the dogs looking like racks of bones and call that being in condition It's not good husbandry, and it's not healthy. When is the last time you saw a human athlete with bones showing? They all have quite the reserve of muscle, and will eat the appropriate foods to build & maintain as much of it as possible. And you're absolutely right, there should be some fat on the body, a thin layer for reserve. The shaking problem, to me, seems very much food related. It's vital for a dog working in water to be lean but have a healthy store of fat. Stamina is definitely influenced by food, and also consider that some foods may cause a spike in the blood sugar level which cause a dog to GO GO GO, then just crash. That's not good.   

     It's not a matter of protein vs. carbs in a food to help them sustain body mass. It's digestability and fats. For a working dog I like 18-20% fat in the diet and will add raw egg yolks and fresh meat for the extra protein and fat. Nothing builds healthy body mass like raw yolks and meat! And again, brand of food is vital. I have used ones that literally made the dogs mushy bodies, even though they were at ideal working weight, while others cause the blood sugar spikes that impacted stamina. BTW, I have been known to carry a tube of Nutri Cal with me when I run the dogs, just in case someone has run themselves too hard and is in danger of going hypoglycemic. I've only had to use it once in 5yrs, but for a working dog, it can be a life saver.

     BTW, this is the type of condition I like to keep my dogs in. She's lean in that you can easily feel her ribs but she has substance and some body fat in reserve, and is rock hard when you put your hands on her. This was in the off season, so I do like to see more muscle mass, normally, tho.

 

Houndmusic, you're talking about an endurance event. Dogs need to be prepared totally differently for endurance and sprinting events. An agility dog runs for less than ten minutes per day at a trial. Explosive sprinting. You want NO fat on that dog. Every ounce slows the dog. Yes, a dog who is expected to run for hours needs a fat layer and different diet and preparation than a sprinting dog.Dogs who sprint should have bones visible.

 I agree with mudpuppy. A hunting dog who runs all day is very, very different from a sport/performance dog who sprints.

 

And did you see the Olympic runners? I just caught a few seconds of the women running, but DANG, they were skinny. They had obvious muscle, but you could definitely see bone. Anybody who's sprinting and jumping like that HAS to be, or they won't perform.