Interesting article on Menadione

In which case, it means that none of the claims on The Dog Food Project, about it being harmful to dogs can be substantiated, which makes those claims frivolous, since we are talking about dog nutrition and the effect of menadione being injested at small amounts through the gut of dogs. So, if I can't say it is harmless, since it hasn't been studied, someone else can't say it is harmful, for the same reason.

abbysdad

In which case, it means that none of the claims on The Dog Food Project, about it being harmful to dogs can be substantiated, which makes those claims frivolous, since we are talking about dog nutrition and the effect of menadione being injested at small amounts through the gut of dogs.

There aren't any frivolous claims about it being harmful to dogs in the Dog Food Project article. There aren't any claims at all. Even the "Why is it bad?" section clearly references research done on humans. The article consists of fact with citations, comments from various sources and general information on the substance. In fact it says specifically that menadione "has never been researched or specifically approved for long term use, such as in pet food". The information is provided for people to make their own decision about their comfort level with the substance. Obviously you have done so, as have I.

abbysdad

So, if I can't say it is harmless, since it hasn't been studied, someone else can't say it is harmful, for the same reason.

sooner

I can't say that long term ingestion of menadione is harmful to dogs, and you can't say that it isn't... because it simply has not been studied in controlled circumstances.

Ok last post on this and I am done, but I find it very deceitful for The Dog Food Project to list known side affects of menadione, most of which were on human infants when injected directly into the bloodstream at 100 times the level found in pet foods. That has absolutely nothing to do with dog nutrition or a dog injesting it thru there gut and is very misleading at best.  You could do that with 80 percent of the vitamins and minerals found in dog food, why doesn't she do a list for all of the toxic vitamins and minerals, and let people decide about those also?  Her quotes have about as much relevence to dog nutrition as the ones below, and is one of many reasons I do not like that site at all.

Vitamin D 

In adults, a daily dose of 1.0-2.0 mg of vitamin D is toxic when consumed for a prolonged period. A single dose of about 50 mg or greater is toxic for adults. The immediate effect of an overdose of vitamin D is abdominal cramps, nausea and vomiting. Toxic doses of vitamin D taken over a prolonged period of time result in irreversible deposits of calcium crystals in the soft tissues of the body that may damage the heart, lungs, and kidneys.

Vitamin A

toxicity can occur with long-term consumption of 20 mg of retinol or more per day. The symptoms of vitamin A overdosing include accumulation of water in the brain (hydrocephalus), vomiting, tiredness, constipation, bone pain, and severe headaches. The skin may acquire a rough and dry appearance, with hair loss and brittle nails. Vitamin A toxicity is a special issue during pregnancy. Expectant mothers who take 10 mg vitamin A or more on a daily basis may have an infant with birth defects. These birth defects include abnormalities of the face, nervous system, heart, and thymus gland. It is possible to take in toxic levels of vitamin A by eating large quantities of certain foods. For example, about 30 grams of beef liver, 500 grams of eggs, or 2,500 grams of mackerel would supply 10 mg of retinol.  

abbysdad

Ok last post on this and I am done, but I find it very deceitful for The Dog Food Project to list known side affects of menadione, most of which were on human infants when injected directly into the bloodstream at 100 times the level found in pet foods. That has absolutely nothing to do with dog nutrition or a dog injesting it thru there gut and is very misleading at best.  You could do that with 80 percent of the vitamins and minerals found in dog food, why doesn't she do a list for all of the toxic vitamins and minerals, and let people decide about those also?  Her quotes have about as much relevence to dog nutrition as the ones below, and is one of many reasons I do not like that site at all.

abbysdad

Ok last post on this and I am done, but I find it very deceitful for The Dog Food Project to list known side affects of menadione, most of which were on human infants when injected directly into the bloodstream at 100 times the level found in pet foods. That has absolutely nothing to do with dog nutrition or a dog injesting it thru there gut and is very misleading at best.  You could do that with 80 percent of the vitamins and minerals found in dog food, why doesn't she do a list for all of the toxic vitamins and minerals, and let people decide about those also?  Her quotes have about as much relevence to dog nutrition as the ones below, and is one of many reasons I do not like that site at all.

Vitamin D 

In adults, a daily dose of 1.0-2.0 mg of vitamin D is toxic when consumed for a prolonged period. A single dose of about 50 mg or greater is toxic for adults. The immediate effect of an overdose of vitamin D is abdominal cramps, nausea and vomiting. Toxic doses of vitamin D taken over a prolonged period of time result in irreversible deposits of calcium crystals in the soft tissues of the body that may damage the heart, lungs, and kidneys.

Vitamin A

toxicity can occur with long-term consumption of 20 mg of retinol or more per day. The symptoms of vitamin A overdosing include accumulation of water in the brain (hydrocephalus), vomiting, tiredness, constipation, bone pain, and severe headaches. The skin may acquire a rough and dry appearance, with hair loss and brittle nails. Vitamin A toxicity is a special issue during pregnancy. Expectant mothers who take 10 mg vitamin A or more on a daily basis may have an infant with birth defects. These birth defects include abnormalities of the face, nervous system, heart, and thymus gland. It is possible to take in toxic levels of vitamin A by eating large quantities of certain foods. For example, about 30 grams of beef liver, 500 grams of eggs, or 2,500 grams of mackerel would supply 10 mg of retinol.  

 

 

 Couldn't have said it better myself!
 

Think of it this way...  

         Not all that what appears on the web is correct.. ever heard of that   !!

I really like the Dog Food Project .......  but .....

The lack of Vitamin K appears to be a worse case scenario for the majority of dogs.  Especially pups.  So if a dog food manufacturer puts it in their food it's for the benefit of the dog. Not many companies still use BHT/BHA as preservatives. Even the largest , Purina , seems to use mixed tocopherols. But still use Menadione. I would doubt they do any over dosing of any Vitamin on purpose.

It is however a great marketing approach for the Holistic companies.

The more I get into this I am becoming aware that 90 0/0 of selling a Pet Food is getting the public to fall for the hype, when it's results that really matter.

papillon806

 Couldn't have said it better myself!

I know you're a member of her board, and I'm sure she'd appreciate the chance to respond if you think she's being deceitful.

What do i know about Vitamin K?  When my Honey ate d-con we rushed her to the vet and she was given two injections of vitamin K.  D-con kills by making blood not co=agulate and a slight bump will cause the rat or mouse  to bleed to death internally.Vitamin K is used to "fix' the blood so i t will clot.  Not only did honey get 2 injections of it that day, but was on capsul a day of it for 50 days i think it was.  my vet had lost a dog after the normal dosage, so he gives a few days lonter.  Then 3 days aft4er her last capsul I had to take her in, they drew blood and did the test and her clotting factor was normal. 

 Leafy greebn  veggies are loaded with Vitamin k.  My cousins daughter has blood clots in her lungs and she is on blood thinner.  Being a  healthy eater, she was eating lots of salad and other green veggies until the doctor said no--the vitam9in k in them would work against the drug she is taking to keep her blood thin. (The doctors have decided the clots were caused by her birth control pills.)

 So putting all this tog3ether it seems to me viatmin JK, even if artificail, would befefit dogs in small amounts---unless you had a dog with certain problems.  And unless you have bought REAL vitamin k, Wheee--as my vet said "The price is obscene, for God's sake it is only a vitamin"    It appears that in most, if not all, cases, it is either artificail or none at all, or many a drop in a ton of food so they can say Vitakin k is in there.  But i  have never worried about it at all.

Menadione is ridiculously easy to avoid.  Vit K is ridiculously easy to supply in other ways.  The jury is still out on artificial K's safety as far as I'm concerned. So I avoid it.

It's not, alone, a reason to avoid a potentially useful kibble.  However, it's a tick in the "against" column.  No matter what else you think of it, it's a shortcut - like unchelated minerals in the old days, before they realized they may as well pour those minerals on their shoes as put anything but a proteinated mineral in pet feed.  Corn is a shortcut also, usually - cheap energy - so its appearance in a food makes me suspicious.  But it's not literally a tick in the "against" column for me since I've got a couple of dogs that actually do best on corn - nice, whole ground corn and light on any other grains, combined with high quality meat sources.

A lot of what I see in pet food - yes, even in the nicest, most "holistic" foods - is still modeled on the livestock feed paradigm.  What can we get away with? And, whatever - that's their perogative.  I don't like outright deceipt or anything that smacks of it, but other than that I find my own comfort level and stay there. 

It's even different for different dogs I have.  Every ingredient for Ben's food now goes under my own hands before it passes his lips.  Cord is about 3/4 there also, for different reasons.  Maggie's 14 years old and I want to continue the good work that's brought her to that age so healthy that the vet last month thought she was about six.    The youngsters need high quality proteins and carbs, and I have to watch the fat on Mr. Fatty Gus and Zhi the crested.

sooner

papillon806

 Couldn't have said it better myself!

I know you're a member of her board, and I'm sure she'd appreciate the chance to respond if you think she's being deceitful.

 I already replied to it   I am going to try to bring up some of the points that leaves me skeptical, but I know how she gets when she feels cornered lol
 

brookcove

  What can we get away with?

 While I do agree with some of your statement, I do think that the menadione issue has nothing to do with what the larger companies can "get away with."  If they seriously thought it was an issue, all they would have to do is remove it....it wouldn't cost them anything more; it would actually cost them less!  And yes, they have looked into it amongst all of the "anti-menadione" hype.  But since they haven't found any definitive studies on the subject, they aren't going to remove it just because.   You have to understand where they are coming from...
 

papillon806

brookcove

  What can we get away with?

 

 While I do agree with some of your statement, I do think that the menadione issue has nothing to do with what the larger companies can "get away with."  If they seriously thought it was an issue, all they would have to do is remove it....it wouldn't cost them anything more; it would actually cost them less!  And yes, they have looked into it amongst all of the "anti-menadione" hype.  But since they haven't found any definitive studies on the subject, they aren't going to remove it just because.   You have to understand where they are coming from...

And I actually still believe I do know where they are coming from (and there is no blame here, I just need to be realistic for my dogs' sake).  What reason is there for using artificial versus natural K?  convenience and cost, I'm sure.  I really don't buy into the whole argument of, it's okay because no one's bothered to prove otherwise. 

I'm not a holistic nazi, as you know.  I choose to feed Bil-Jac to my working dogs - and it has BHA.  I've looked into the pros and cons of that ingredient and personally believe the benefit outweighs the risk, which truly is ambiguous.  But it is very fashionable to lump it together with the more questionable BHT. 

I've subjected the menadione question to the same test (and I didn't even know about Mordanna at the time I considered the issue - I've only recently joined her board), and it doesn't pass, for me, in most instances.  If I fed the same food every day I might have a serious problem with an unknown like that, given the pet food industry's previous history.  This is what I mean with their attitude of "good enough."  Cats can live off corn gluten, right?  Taurine?  What's that?  Fat is fat, so we can use mineral oil, delivers the same amount of energy.  OFAs?  What are those?

sandra_slayton

What do i know about Vitamin K?  When my Honey ate d-con we rushed her to the vet and she was given two injections of vitamin K.  D-con kills by making blood not co=agulate and a slight bump will cause the rat or mouse  to bleed to death internally.Vitamin K is used to "fix' the blood so i t will clot.  Not only did honey get 2 injections of it that day, but was on capsul a day of it for 50 days i think it was.  my vet had lost a dog after the normal dosage, so he gives a few days lonter.  Then 3 days aft4er her last capsul I had to take her in, they drew blood and did the test and her clotting factor was normal. 

 Leafy greebn  veggies are loaded with Vitamin k.  My cousins daughter has blood clots in her lungs and she is on blood thinner.  Being a  healthy eater, she was eating lots of salad and other green veggies until the doctor said no--the vitam9in k in them would work against the drug she is taking to keep her blood thin. (The doctors have decided the clots were caused by her birth control pills.)

 So putting all this tog3ether it seems to me viatmin JK, even if artificail, would befefit dogs in small amounts---unless you had a dog with certain problems.  And unless you have bought REAL vitamin k, Wheee--as my vet said "The price is obscene, for God's sake it is only a vitamin"    It appears that in most, if not all, cases, it is either artificail or none at all, or many a drop in a ton of food so they can say Vitakin k is in there.  But i  have never worried about it at all.

What was administered to Honey was most likely vitamin K1. There are several different vitamin K derivatives, including menadione (K3), and they cannot all be lumped together as the same thing that we get from veggies.

Can't we all just get along?