What Would Happen ? Grain Free Question....

They usually don't suggest that you feed them to puppies, regardless of size or breed. Evo I think is for 18 months or older, and I know Core is for over a year old. You could email the companies and ask them why. 

The guy that owns one of the shops near my parents told me a while back that there are quite a few people around who have fed EVO from puppy to adulthood with no problem.  He said he always recomends against it, but people still do it.  I'd be interested to see what the end result would be.

Cassidys Mom

They usually don't suggest that you feed them to puppies, regardless of size or breed. Evo I think is for 18 months or older, and I know Core is for over a year old. You could email the companies and ask them why. 

Evo mentions this on web sites F.A.Q. page. But on their base page for Evo they don't ... If I didn't know about this issue might I feed it because they say for All Life Stages?

I also have in front of me a Bag of Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken Meal Formula.  No where on the bag does it mention I should not feed to a Lg. Breed Pup.

Should they be able to say All Life Stages? Or should this be Adult Food Only ? 

     This is EXACTLY my main issue with these foods! Ideal calcium:phosphorous ratio for dogs is 1.1:1.0
Whereas, some of these diets contain calcium levels up to 3.0!!!!!!! That's beyond outrageous, and furthermore, IMHO, this excessive protein is NOT needed. I cannot believe that such high levels of calcium over an extended period of time will not have any affect on the bones. More importantly, I'm not convinced the high levels of phosphorous that go along with the protein and increased calcium levels will not place stress on healthy kidneys, and do much worse to kidneys of older dogs or that may already be diseased ... remember, the majority of the kidney will be gone before the dog shows symptoms of kidney disease, and by then, it's usually too late.
     Another thing you need to consider is that these diets are made to mimic raw diets in kibble form. Well, they don't. Raw meats are generally around 18-21% protein, certainly not high at all. To get the protein levels up to 40-50%, one would have to feed chicken, turkey, cottage cheese, eggs, fish all in one meal (as per the ingredient list of Innova Evo). Most raw feeders only give one protein source per meal, and occasionally will give an egg with their meat, but even that's not a daily occurrence.
     Lastly, consider that while the food is not using grains to bind the kibble together, they must use some form of starch to create a dry food. In some foods that's tapioca. I frequently make my own tapioca from scratch, and no matter how "natural" the recipe is, pure white SUGAR is a basic ingredient in that dessert. I can't understand why a company would forsake a healthy, nutrient dense whole grain such as oatmeal, which has such benefits for the coat, in lieu of adding a sugary snack?! Its all about the $$$$$ and filling a nice in the market, and NOTHING to do with fulfilling the nutritional needs of dogs.

HoundMusic

In some foods that's tapioca. I frequently make my own tapioca from scratch, and no matter how "natural" the recipe is, pure white SUGAR is a basic ingredient in that dessert.

I don't think you can compare a tapioca dessert to plain tapioca - the sugar is there if you add it (when making dessert).   I'm not sure how good a startch it is for a dog - I tend to stick to sweet potato as the carb in the commercial food part of my dogs diet.   As to the excess calcium in some of the foods, thats done so you can add your own fresh meat w/out adding calcium (because some people just don't know they should) - it does pay to know these things and get the calcium:phosphate ratio of the commercial foods you're feeding so that you'll know if you need to add calcium for any fresh (non RMB) portions you add.

I'm right with you but the idea today that a super high protein diet isn't "the done thing" is NOT popular.  But I tend to feed for longevity -- and I've had too many older dogs with kidney issues to want to stress the kidneys unduly with ultra high protein in their younger years. 

HoundMusic

     This is EXACTLY my main issue with these foods! Ideal calcium:phosphorous ratio for dogs is 1.1:1.0
Whereas, some of these diets contain calcium levels up to 3.0!!!!!!! That's beyond outrageous, and furthermore, IMHO, this excessive protein is NOT needed. I cannot believe that such high levels of calcium over an extended period of time will not have any affect on the bones. More importantly, I'm not convinced the high levels of phosphorous that go along with the protein and increased calcium levels will not place stress on healthy kidneys, and do much worse to kidneys of older dogs or that may already be diseased ... remember, the majority of the kidney will be gone before the dog shows symptoms of kidney disease, and by then, it's usually too late.
     Another thing you need to consider is that these diets are made to mimic raw diets in kibble form. Well, they don't. Raw meats are generally around 18-21% protein, certainly not high at all. To get the protein levels up to 40-50%, one would have to feed chicken, turkey, cottage cheese, eggs, fish all in one meal (as per the ingredient list of Innova Evo). Most raw feeders only give one protein source per meal, and occasionally will give an egg with their meat, but even that's not a daily occurrence.
     Lastly, consider that while the food is not using grains to bind the kibble together, they must use some form of starch to create a dry food. In some foods that's tapioca. I frequently make my own tapioca from scratch, and no matter how "natural" the recipe is, pure white SUGAR is a basic ingredient in that dessert. I can't understand why a company would forsake a healthy, nutrient dense whole grain such as oatmeal, which has such benefits for the coat, in lieu of adding a sugary snack?! Its all about the $$$$$ and filling a nice in the market, and NOTHING to do with fulfilling the nutritional needs of dogs.

Amen, it is all about the marketing and money. Tapioca and potatoes are not very good sources of carbohydrates, yet they are marketed as a superior sources of nutrients, while corn, wheat and soy are evil, yet provide superior nutrients.

HoundMusic

this excessive protein is NOT needed.

IMO, the excessive carbohydrates in most commercial foods are NOT needed.

HoundMusic

Raw meats are generally around 18-21% protein, certainly not high at all.

Whoa. Raw meats are 60-70% WATER (vs. most kibble which is 60-70% grain), so of course they seem to only be a small percentage protein. If you dehydrate them down to 10% moisture (like kibble), you'd see they have a heck of a lot more protein and fat than grain-free kibbles, and ZERO carbs, unlike ANY kibble.

HoundMusic

To get the protein levels up to 40-50%, one would have to feed chicken, turkey, cottage cheese, eggs, fish all in one meal

That doesn't make any sense at all.

HoundMusic

I frequently make my own tapioca from scratch, and no matter how "natural" the recipe is, pure white SUGAR is a basic ingredient in that dessert.

OMG! They don't put tapioca PUDDING in dog food! They put tapioca STARCH. Tapioca starch (which is an ingredient in tapioca pudding, but is not synonymous with the dessert you're familiar with) is just a starch, like corn starch. Comes from the cassava root.

I wish you people would quit spreading misinformation because YOU don't believe in high-protein diets. Good grief.

HoundMusic

Raw meats are generally around 18-21% protein,

Where did you get this from???

Here are some values:

Chicken Quarter with Skin - 60% moisture, 16% protein, 21% fat (DMB 40% protein, 53% fat)

Chicken Carcass - 62% moisture, 18% protein, 14% fat (DMB 47% protein, 37% fat)

Lamb Shank - 65% moisture, 23% protein, 8% fat (DMB 66% protein, 23% fat)

chelsea_b

I wish you people would quit spreading misinformation because YOU don't believe in high-protein diets.

Amen to that! And everything else in your post! 

Me three, we have argued this about a million times.  There is good evidence that high protein does NOT cause kidney damage which has been posted by several of the regulars here on numerous occasions.  It's fine to feed your dog grain if you want to, but spreading misinformation is NOT ok IMO. 

I think everyone  makes good points ... When Orijen became the internet buzz I e-mailed the Champion Pet Food Co. that makes it and they danced around my question about long term feeding tests or studies.  

  I can't find any .   .   Don't you think that before introducing these high protein / high calcium ratios they would have fed it long term and got some real results.

Orijen has a Lg. Breed Puppy that has correct cal. / phos. ratios . 

Am I right to think that it may be a big waste of $$. If the dog does not need protein in the 40 percent range won't he just remove it in his urine?

I can see the benefits for short term feeding. Stress or performance conditions. But at twice the cost of reg. kibble if my dog does not have allergies to grains I don't see the need.

I agree these diets don't "imitate" raw diets at all, but you're wrong about the protein level- you're forgetting the water in raw meat. If you dehydrate a raw diet, to produce a kibble-like product, you end up around 40% protein.  Numerous studies have shown that high protein levels don't stress dogs kidneys or cause any kind of problems; but some studies have shown that diets with "normal" kibble levels of protein lead to more injuries and poor muscling of the dogs.

I've posted calculations before showing that feeding these diets doesn't actually end up feeding your dog tons of protein or calcium. What they do is reduce the carbohydrate intake, something dogs DON'T need.  Heres an example, all numbers gestimated by me as an illustrative example:

Your dog needs 800 calories per day. You feed EVO, which is 500 calories per cup, so you feed 1.6 cups per day. At 40% protein, 100 g of food per cup, that's approximately 64 grams of protein, and at 3% cacium, that's 4.8 g of calcium.

You feed same dog grain-filled cheap crap like purina. At 350 calories per cup, and 22% protein, you feed 2.3 cups per day. assuming it's 100 g of food per cup, that's approximately 51 grams of protein per day; and if it has 1.5% calcium, that's 3.5 g of calcium.

The real problem is that dog food labels are very misleading.

Let's say your dog is super-active and needs 1200 calories per day. If you fed purina to this dog, you'd be feeding 75 g of protein, which is more than the example-above is getting from evo. Also would be 5 g calcium, again more than the dog above fed on evo.

My big issue without all the go around is what tests have been done on the high Calcium levels to Labrador puppies.   If I understand feeding higher levels of protein I must give more calcium or the protein uptake can draw calcium out of the bones ? NV Instinct says it's for all life stages ? Where to they get their results on feeding puppies ?

I still don't understand making a kibble that has such high amounts of energy except for sled dog teams.

What I would rather see are good labels like you mentioned.

# 1 change...   List how much protein comes from animal source.

any other ways I would like to hear suggestions..

Something tells me that no studies were done and all the hype is going to lead to a lot of health issues down the road. 

It's was neat to hear all the tales of dogs that lived a long life. Most ate table scraps, Purina, or Pedigree.