choke collar = bad obedience class?

Ask lots of questions.
Ask about the class instructor - how long have they been teaching. What do they do with their own dogs, and what titles they have earned.
 
Ask if they have more than one way to teach each behavior, and if they have worked with your breed, or similar size dogs.
 
Ask what the refund policy is, ask what the policy is for missed classes - or advancement to higher level classes. Ask if there are higher level classes and what the criteria is to join them.
 
Look at the dogs and people in class, are they attentive, having fun - or does everyone look stressed. If you can, ask someone after class what they like and don't like.
 
Good luck, and have lots of patience. It is a real shift in thinking/learning that is much more stressful on you than on your dog.
 
Remember, if you don't like the way your instructor is doing something, ask if there is another way you could try!
 
Let us know how it goes, okay? 
 
 

I would call this a "crank and yank" trainer. Using a choke chain to "get their attention" means he's issuing corrections (leash pops) with a choker - I would run, not walk, in the other direction. Before anyone goes leaping to defend the choke chain, let me add the question - what responsible trainer would start with the choke chain corrections before trying any other method, before even meeting the dog(s)?

it is just used to get their attention.

 
I would have to say that I agree with jones.  If you want to use positive reinforcement and operant conditioning with your dog, then find another trainer.  Some sites that have trainer searches:
[linkhttp://www.apdt.com]www.apdt.com[/link]
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com]www.clickertraining.com[/link]
There is a trainer in Ft. Lauderdale who has the CPDT designation.  Her name is Susan Claire ([email=susan@playtraindog.com]susan@playtraindog.com[/email]).  Might be worth a try.

The good news is that the trainer I really wanted to go with that had no room in the obedience classes called me this evening to tell me they had an opening in the next class. YAY! The classes are shorter (1hr instead of 2hrs) and more expensive ($120 instead of $65) but they do clicker/positive training. Yes they are on that [linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com]www.clickertraining.com[/link] site too!
 
So, we won't be going to the choke collar trainer. [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif] YAY!

Re-writing since you posted before I hit ok on mine.
 
I am RELIEVED to hear you got in with the other trainer... especially once I read that they had 2 HOUR training classes.... For a beginner obedience, I can't think of a good enough reason to have a class that long.  The dogs generally don't hold it together for training more than an hour.  Unless they were doing short/abbreviated spurts of training (15mins) then play for 15 then back to training???  Sounds weird.
 
Pro trainers - any reason you would advocate 2 hour training sessions with a choke chain as standard equipment for a beginner obedience class?

My class is one hour long, but it has a 15 minute break in it for the dogs to relieve themselves, get a drink, etc.
 
Two hours is very long, I don't think most students could cope well with that much info. I don't think even the best of trainers could keep a dog's attention and bright attitude for 2 hours.
 
There are a lot of classes, it will just take some foot work to go and visit, watch a class, talk to students and trainers to find one you are comfortable with.
 
Good luck, enjoy the journey! Whether you are training for a well behaved pet, or a competition obedience dog, trust and believe in your dog and he or she will not let you down.
 
 

Kara, I highly recommend checking out some obedience clubs.  Not only are the teachers generally top notch, but the fellow members are bound to have years of experience in raising well behaved dogs.  On top of that most will use positive methods to get the dog motivated. 
Here's a few I googled in your area:
[linkhttp://www.otcpbc.org/]http://www.otcpbc.org/[/link]
 
[linkhttp://www.miamiobedienceclub.org/]http://www.miamiobedienceclub.org/[/link]
 
This one looks especially good and its only 15 minutes from ft lauderdale. 
[linkhttp://www.dogclubofhollywood.com/]http://www.dogclubofhollywood.com/[/link]
 
The other great thing about obedience clubs is that they understand that training may not just be a 6 week stint, but a year long process.  So classes are generally less expensive. I'm in massachusetts and I pay $5 as a member drop-in for an hour long class once a week.  I have access to training rings for free.  Free access to the clubs large library of training and dog related books.  I pay a yearly membership and I have to help out at trials.  But it is so worth it.  Just thought I'd throw that out there for you to consider in the long term if you're interested.

Emily, WOW! Thanks for the info. 2 of those places are way too far but the Dog Club of Hollywood looks like just the thing! I registered with them and am going to check them out, maybe go to a meeting. AWESOME! Thank you for the info.. I had the worst time trying to find local obedience info for some reason. South Florida Dog Obedience on google didn't turn up much for me. I would love to get Gracie involved in some sort of dog sport, even if it is just for fun. I think she would love it.

THANK YOU!

ORIGINAL: jones

 what responsible trainer would start with the choke chain corrections before trying any other method, before even meeting the dog(s)?

 
Every one I have ever used, except one, which taught a puppy kindergarten class.  We used a flat collar in that class.
 
Odie pays A LOT more attention on a choke collar than he does on his flat collar.  He is about as responsive off leash as he is on a flat collar.  I would rate his obedience skills as fair off lead or flat collar and very good on a choke collar.
 
Here is the web site of the trainer I am currently using:
 
[linkhttp://thedogtrainingcenter.com/]http://thedogtrainingcenter.com/[/link]
 
I do welcome your opinion on whether or not you consider him "responsible," at least in as much as you can form an opinion based on a web site.
 
I have been fairly pleased with the results we got in the basic obedience class.  Odie pretty much aced it, to be honest.  It was a 12 class session.  He had everything down by about session 7.  The reason I am asking for opinions is we are considering enrolling him in the advanced obedience class in the fall.  There just aren't many choices of trainers in this area and this is the one recommended by the shelter where we adopted The Ode.
 
We are considering the advanced obedience because they teach things like heel, front and finish.  This would be farther than I have ever gone with a dog before and I think dogs who do this are way cool.  Odie is probably the smartest dog that I have ever had too, so I think he would be capable of learning more advanced obedience.

I started from day one with a choke chain for Xerxes.  I never did the "yank and crank" training method though.  I like the choke chain for teaching just by virtue of adjusting where the collar is on his neck.  If I put it up under his chin, he knows that we're working, otherwise we're just walking.  That's why I like the choker, also if he wanted to get out of any other collar he could, with the exception being a prong.  But he has no fat and very little hair so a prong collar is out of the question.

billy

i looked at the site you linked to. the facility looked nice and clean. and the partial resume they listed for the head trainer looked commendable. since you have used them before and been happy with the results i would count that as a positive thing in their favor as well.

i couldnt find anywhere on there that it mentioned having to use choke collars in their classes (maybe i didnt look at the right place), but it does mention that they use praise and positive reinforcement. from my limited experiences, we enrolled amelia in an obedience class that used choke collars. the trainer that we used came highly recommended and had many repeat customers in the class we were in. however, from the beginning i had some issues with the class, and should have trusted my gut and not signed up in the first place. this is my list of grievances with the training facility we used that seems to be using about the same techniques as the place you link to:

1. no consideration was given to the fact that some dogs are not receptive to this type of training. amelia was not. no matter how much i tried to work with her with that choke collar, it wasnt working.

2. they dont mention class size on the link provided, but the class we were in was too big. there were around 20 dogs in there.

3. praise and positive reinforcement to me means that the dog has a positive experience and receives praise for everything she does correctly. in the class we were in, there was correction for things not done or done incorrectly (a negative experience for our dog) and only a scratch behind the ears for doing something correctly. to me this was negative reinforcement with a sparse amount of praise. and this trainer (the one we used) touted this as their praise and positive reinforcement method.

4. i think that training should be a fun experience for the dog and the handler. this class was not fun for either participant.

5. he required us to start teaching heal on the first lesson. IMO this was too soon. we should have started with easier tasks and built up to something like a heal later on.

6. the first night was a "people" only class. this was to get you in, get your money, show you their boarding facility (i am assuming as some type of advertising), sell you a choke collar and leash (they would only let you use specific ones), give a brief demo and run down of what your dog would be learning, and tell you that after this first night there were no refunds.

since leaving the class, we found a trainer who teaches clicker training and we were much happier with the results of that. both our dogs enjoyed it and so did we. this type of training IMO made our dogs be much more confident and overall happier as a result of what they learned.

for anyone living in the greenville/spartanburg area in south carolina, i would definitely give a negative recommendation to the original place we tried. feel free to pm me and i will gladly tell you who i would never use again, and tell you who i would recommend as well.

sorry this is so long winded.[]

There is no one way to train every dog. Some learn better this way, some better that way - but unless we understand what we are doing, our dogs won't either.

I wouldn't reject the trainer just because they use a choke chain. But the 2 hr. class does sound very different. Even with a 1 hr. class, it can be hard to keep the dog's attention, but I can't imagine a class that lasts 2 hours! All the ones I have gone to are 1 hour long. I'm taking my older dog ( 3 yrs) to training classes where most of the dogs wear choke collars. I can tell that some of the dogs there are NOT suited for the choke collar, and want to tell the people to try something else with them! This is because the dogs are pulling against the choke chain. I do use the choke chain with her when I can, but I'll never let her pull on it; it has to be loose  unless I'm giving her a pop with the leash. If she does start to pull with it, I'll switch her to the prong collar. The only reason I am using the choke collar though, is because that is what the dogs have to wear for the dog show at the end. If I'm correct, this is what 'real' show dogs have to wear as well....no prong collars or other 'training devices' are allowed in the show either. So I am not against the choke collar itself...it REALLY depends on how the owner uses it. However, I would rather use the prong collar any day.

If you're training for obedience competitions you are also allowed to use flat buckle collars.  If its for conformation then choke or martingale is what's typically used.  I found that my dog was much happier doing obedience on a flat buckle as opposed to a choke.  I thought there was no way he was going to heel without the choke collar.  Boy did he surprise me, not only did he heel better, his whole attitude changed to happy.  But each dog is different and what works for one may not for another. Just my experience...