Did You Dump the Dominance Theory?

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
I didn't ever say that you roll your dog - I said that CM sometimes pushes a dog to the ground.  Saw it again last night in fact. 

But i have always wonder how a person like you would handle a dominant aggressive dog (regardless of last night episode) and dont take this question as an attack or trying to prove you cant but just as trying to understand how a +R person could help in a case like that if i am a normal guy asking for help to a trainer []

I think snownose and I were left without our response about how to handle an aggressive dog by a +R person like Anne

No you weren't...

  Original spiritdogs


I didn't ever say that you roll your dog - I said that CM sometimes pushes a dog to the ground.  Saw it again last night in fact. 


snownose, every aggression situation is different, but here's what I do initially.  I take a complete history on the dog from the owner, and that includes info on diet, socialization, where the dog sleeps, what he gets for exercise, what kind of training he's had, what commands he knows, is he intact, under what circumstances he becomes aggressive, etc.  I want to know about his bite history with people or with dogs or both, and how serious the incidents were (did he give someone a black and blue, or did he make multiple punctures?).  I want to know if he has been evaluated by a veterinarian (general physical, what vax & when, thyroid testing, etc.)  If possible, I want to see the dog and owner together, or I want video of the bad behavior.  That's just a start.  But, once I feel I have a handle on the dog's problem, I try to work with the owner to put a regimen in place that will help the situation, and that the owner can safely manage on their own once I am no longer there to help.  The protocols I use are similar to the ones that other behavior professionals use (Hetts, Estep, Overall, Dodman, Aloff, Clothier, King, etc.)

Hope that helps.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
I didn't ever say that you roll your dog - I said that CM sometimes pushes a dog to the ground.  Saw it again last night in fact. 

But i have always wonder how a person like you would handle a dominant aggressive dog (regardless of last night episode) and dont take this question as an attack or trying to prove you cant but just as trying to understand how a +R person could help in a case like that if i am a normal guy asking for help to a trainer []

I think snownose and I were left without our response about how to handle an aggressive dog by a +R person like Anne

Well, that's because I have typed a response twice and the darn thing was timed out. [:@]  Believe me, I'm not evading the question.
If someone can PM me how I can cut and paste into here from Word, I'm happy to try that.  I'm a little techno-challenged.
The version above is a short one that I typed after the first one disappeared.

I dumped it a LOONNGG time ago. The one thing I cannot stand when I comes to the whole dominance thing is probably rolling. What most people don't realize is that the only time wolves would roll each other or stand over them is when they are about to kill them...

[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]Excellent point! 

I think the only way to truly answer the OP question is to understand it.  Dominance has several different concepts.  I assume, that the OP regards dominates as coercion. The term is often associated with circumstances which involve the unethical use of threats or harm to achieve some objective.

Dominance as in coercion is not a plan I have ever practiced so I dumped that idea before it ever formulated.

However, dominance as it is referred to in biology and anthropology is the state of having high social status relative to others.  For me, this concept is what comes to mind when dominance and dogs are used in the same sentence.  After all genetics has already mapped this out in dogs long before us humans got involved and when people aren't involved in the pack life, dogs accomplish this primarily with confidence which melts into leadership - those who use coercion are eliminated.

I'm just going to repeat myself in saying that I think it's worthwhile to look at this dogs and dominance theory thing from an evolutionary standpoint. What selection pressures exist on domestic dogs to make the kind of dominant displays and ritualised (and sometimes deadly serious) aggression we see in wolves beneficial? Are the selection pressures on domestic dogs pulling them AWAY from such behaviour? Just because they are removed from natural selection now doesn't mean there are no selection pressures on them governing how they evolve, and I believe they are evolving.

ORIGINAL: snownose

Dogs have been known to form a pack as strays,and hunt.
That pretty much seems like wolf behavior to me. Even after many years of breeding, we haven't erased the predatory drive in many dogs.
Maybe, it is much simpler than what all the books are about.

I don't get your point - predatory drive is not the same as dominance.  Submissive dogs hunt, too, and, in fact, timidity is a dominant (in the genetic sense) trait that makes it more likely the dog (or wolf) will survive.

What single thing convinced you that there was a better way?

Getting to know an actual dog I mean, I'm not very good with dogs yet; but I don't think that the whole "imposing dominance" thing really works. You have to let the dog decide you're dominant, not declare you're dominant whether the dog likes it or not.

My housemate's philosophy--the housemate who owns Mercy, my favorite dog--is all about control and punishment instead of leadership. So Mercy obeys her, but it's mostly because Mercy's afraid she'll be punished. And fear has become a bit of a problem in itself. (Mercy does love her owner--she doesn't really "live in fear". I'm only talking about the "telling Mercy what to do" part of the relationship.)

But what I've observed about Mercy, who's naturally submissive (and pees herself to prove it if you push too hard), is that when you tell her to do something, communicating with her and getting her trust are way better to get her to do what you want. You're still leading, still the "alpha", but you're not doing it by force.

For example, if you have Mercy on a leash, and you want her to come to you, the best way isn't to pull on the leash--it's to get her attention and then tell her to come. You only pull on the leash when you're teaching her how to "come", or telling her which direction to go in.

I don't know about dominance really--I know our dogs have a hierarchy, and I know they consider us humans to be at the top of it--but I know that you can be a dog's owner and you can get the dog to do what you want, but you'll never really be a good "alpha" if the dog doesn't trust you to take care of it and treat it fairly. Leading a dog is more than tellin it what to do.

That's all.

I don't get your point - predatory drive is not the same as dominance. Submissive dogs hunt, too, and, in fact, timidity is a dominant (in the genetic sense) trait that makes it more likely the dog (or wolf) will survive.

My point, certain traits are hardwired into the dog's brain.
Dominance is a big part of the dog world, having witnessed it myself.
Just like the grouping together as strays and creating a pack. Dogs in my opinion still show a lot of wolf behavior, and we as humans try make dogs more human than what they really are.

spiritdogs, I forgot to ask you, are you just a trainer, or are you a behaviorist, too?

ORIGINAL: Callista

What single thing convinced you that there was a better way?

Getting to know an actual dog I mean, I'm not very good with dogs yet; but I don't think that the whole "imposing dominance" thing really works. You have to let the dog decide you're dominant, not declare you're dominant whether the dog likes it or not.

 

I don't know about dominance really--I know our dogs have a hierarchy, and I know they consider us humans to be at the top of it--but I know that you can be a dog's owner and you can get the dog to do what you want, but you'll never really be a good "alpha" if the dog doesn't trust you to take care of it and treat it fairly. Leading a dog is more than tellin it what to do.

 
My thoughts exactly.
 
My only question is:  Why aren't you the one at your house with a dog?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Callista

quote:

What single thing convinced you that there was a better way?

Getting to know an actual dog I mean, I'm not very good with dogs yet; but I don't think that the whole "imposing dominance" thing really works. You have to let the dog decide you're dominant, not declare you're dominant whether the dog likes it or not.

Now, that I totally disagree with.
You would be asking for trouble at my house with 5 big, and powerful breeds.

LOL, you're right, snownose; I should have seen how that came out.

I think it may be better said as, "You have to act in such a way that the dog decides you're dominant." Just waiting around and expecting the dog to accept your leadership ain't gonna cut it; you have to show you're a leader, but it's the dog who decides you're boss. You can't force it on the dog; you can just force obedience and that's not the same.

I have to say I'm not near as good with our insanely energetic 1 year old German Shepherd/Wolf mix. His high energy seems to get in the way of communication. Sure, he obeys commands; but I never really feel that connection with him as I do with Mercy--it's like he's just obeying because it's his training, and that's just what a dog is supposed to do--not because of any basic human/dog relationship we've got. I'm just a generic human to him, to be obeyed but not much else--he's very one-person. (Okay, two person--my housemate and her boyfriend, specifically.) He obeys me like anyone, but I don't think I could teach him a new command to save my life--and he's a REALLY smart dog, too.

Anyway, I don't have a dog because I'm a college student and I can't afford anything more expensive than a hamster; and I have no guarantee that my living situation will allow me to have an animal, nor any guarantee that I could pay for unexpected vet costs. Even getting a dog or cat fixed and vaccinated is too expensive right now... It wouldn't be fair to the animal if I got one, and then had to give it away because I couldn't take care of it anymore, or the only place I could afford didn't allow animals. I think when I finally get a pet it will be a cat, or two cats; they are generally more accepted in apartments. That's not really "settling for second best" because I'm an animal lover in general, and cats were my first love... You never forget your first love

LOL, you're right, I should have seen how that came out.

I think it may be better said as, "You have to act in such a way that the dog decides you're dominant." Just waiting around and expecting the dog to accept your leadership ain't gonna cut it.

In actuality, at least in my multi-dog household, you have to jump into action right away. For example, bringing in another dog, I have to be in charge at all times, I can't afford for any dog to try to figure out if they will let me be dominant.
I would be asking for trouble..............

I dumped it a LOONNGG time ago. The one thing I cannot stand when I comes to the whole dominance thing is probably rolling. What most people don't realize is that the only time wolves would roll each other or stand over them is when they are about to kill them...

 
Incorrect, if it were then dogs would be on the verge of killing each other.
My dogs play rough, there is play growling, rolling, standing over each other.................no blood, just slobber.

I think Callistas points are sound and applicable no matter what the breed.  It is always preferable that the dog elect you as "alpha" rather than have this forced on him, particularly with large powerful breeds - because if you choose the latter course and he objects you have a battle of wills on your hands - which, IMO is not enjoyable for either the handler or the dog.  For me (and I suspect many other posters) that takes the joy out of owning and training a dog - and I think it's the reason many people Dump The Dominance Theory.