Did You Dump the Dominance Theory?

What is this sudden obsession with credentials and experience?? Sheesh, the whole point of a forum like this is for everyone to share their experiences and what they have learnt. Anyone who publicly judges the worth of such experiences based on credentials or whatever is seriously missing the point, here. Grow up, guys. I sure don't care where you all came from and how long your history with dogs is. I can make judgements about who gives sound advice and who seems to be in a different world to me, but that's something I should damn well keep to myself.

I seem to be late getting to this thread. The answer is that I dumped dominance theory when I was 16 and moved away from home. I didn't like having it applied to me and I won't apply it to others I live with. It seems that in most of the world dominance theory is still practiced against women and children.
 
We do expect common courtesy and respect from the animals we live with--things like giving us room on the bed, not jumping on people, not blindly rushing out the door to bark madly at dogs walking by. I'd be pretty annoyed if DH shoved me aside to run out the door too!
 
This appears to be enough as our Golden Retriever/Chow, Malinois/Akita & Malinois get along with each other, other dogs (with the exception of one boxer), and either like or ignore cats in the home. They also have decent enough behavior to be safe and not annoy us.  We do however seperate the cat from the Malinois when no one is home.
 
P.S. Belg_mal Girl, I'm impressed. Someday I may well be reading your books!

Thank you[]

Snow, and Espencer, if you are not sure of Anne's capability's don't follow her instructions, but don't continue to bait her and insult her.
You are taking this thread off topic. She has answered your silly questions now just drop it. She has helped me and most posters in more ways than one.
And Espencer, you like asking questions so much here's one, what breed of dog do you have, and I would like to see a picture of him/her too. I have never heard you refer to your dog once.

Hijacking for a second:
 

The 7 year old doesn't act like he has to appease, I have found the older a German Shepherd gets, the less playful and more serious they turn.
Just my observation, I have been around German Shepherds all my life, more than any other breed.  

 
Really? I am curious to know, if you don't mind, just how many GSD's have you owned? And your age? While ANY dog will get less tolerant and have deminished energy in the later years I do not see that as less playful and more serious. My Babe was almost 12 when she left us, and I can tell you that if she had had the energy she would have gone out, played and acted just as silly as she did when she was 1.
 
To help you along, I am 42, have owned or have had in my life 7 shepherds, my current one is my 8th. This if from early childhood to current. Everything from a breeding pair, formally trained attack and family companions. I took my cues from my mother, who each and every dog adored, and recently have been using some of the more "current" methods of training to work with the new pup. I don't feel that someone has to have a "license" or "certificate" to have good methods or advice for understanding my dog, in fact there are some people out there with those 2 items that I wouldn't hand a stuffed dog to, let alone a live one.
 
 
 
Dawn

Truley:
No problem with the info, I am in my 30's[]

I currently own 3 German Shepherds,13 year old Luke, 7 year old Rumour, and under 1 year old Tanner.
I grew up with 2 German Shepherds my parents owned.
As soon as I was on my own I had my first GSD, then added another one, from then on I always had a pair, including a white Shepherd.
I took in 2 fosters a few years back, and we found a good home for them.
 
I wanted to add that perhaps I formed my opinion about GSDs getting more serious, because a few years back I was a breeder, I bred Huskies.
I think I was comparing the energy level and being playful of Huskies to GSDs,believe me there is a big difference.
I also have 1 Husky/ Mal. mix, 1 Husky/Chow mix.
 
Have you had any experience with northern breeds?
If you do, then you will probably understand my statement[]


Hope that helps some.

Their energy level is sure different, but you can't compare fairly two breeds on an energy level that were meant to do seperate things. Obviouslt both have amazing stamina for working in general, considering northern breeds are sled dogs and shepherds are herders, but a GSD will run for hours and plop next to you for a snuggle, but I"ve had a husky/mal mix, husky and a chow/mal mix. Those would run for hours, and wouldn't give me a fleeting glance. I never really was fond of northern breeds to begin with, but once I got my own, it really helped me see how stubborn and "anti-social" they can be. Now I know it's different with each dog, but this is my experience.

Back onto the original topic, please.

I've had an actual GSD/wolf hybrid, and she was sweet as a lamb; didn't harm a thing (except for flies) and I have pictures of our duckling sitting on the couch with hannah nosing her.  She showed no signs of submissive or dominant behaviors. Actually, she was quite in the middle. She would walk 'next' to me in doorways, didn't growl to protect anything, relaxed all the time...you name a submissive behavior, she would do the semi-opposite, but not to the extent where it could be dominant.

and "anti-social" they can be

I have never found, at least in my experience, northern breeds to be anti-social.
 
I am just utterly amazed that you are 13, and have owned all these animals, that must have been tons of work[] 

A bit OT, but snownose, one of my clients has a Mal/Shep mix.  He's quite handsome,wolflike, really, but he scares the crap out of everyone who sees him. []

I particularly like Stacita's post.  Dominance theory has been used against women and children in the past, and on dogs for longer than I care to think, too.  Only when we put ourselves in the shoes of the "subordinate" and really understand that perspective, can we appreciate that hierarchical status (in a pack, on a job, in a family) is not equivalent to being given less respect for the function one fulfills.  A subordinate is still a hunting partner, a subordinate still helps care for the young, etc.  Even among humans, aren't we happier if our boss or our spouse isn't a jerk?  Doesn't mean we aren't subordinate to the boss (although I question if spouses should dominate one another), but we can be happy and cooperative in a job if the boss leads rather than constantly finds fault or punishes.  The latter would be a job I would quit, and some dogs do the same.  They are quiet and obedient, and few would notice the difference, but the light that they could have had is gone from their eyes.

Call me Karyn, we have had banter between us, so please, call me by my first name.

I think , really think , in a lot of ways you misread my training, yes, I do hands on, but the loving, and attention they get when things are done correctly makes them bounce of the ceiling.
I feel like I always have to defend my stand, and point out, no cruelty involved...yes[]

Maybe, you would call grabbing a dog by the scruff of the neck mean and cruel, but, believe me, it has stopped a fight from coming dead in it's track.

ORIGINAL: snownose

and "anti-social" they can be

I have never found, at least in my experience, northern breeds to be anti-social.

I am just utterly amazed that you are 13, and have owned all these animals, that must have been tons of work[] 

Hehe..It has been! At one point we had a duck, our GSD mix, the husky/mal, 5 birds, 3 hamsters, one with a litter, 2 cats, 1 chicken and a capuchin monkey. and this was all in a house in chicago.

And again, the fact that I claimed that they were anti-social, was based on my own experience. They of course would let us pet and play with them everyday, but compare to the GSDs they didn't like cuddling, they weren't constantly following us around...they were independent. They preferred time outside, and didn't bask in our sun like we were Gods like Hannah did.

Maybe, you would call grabbing a dog by the scruff of the neck mean and cruel, but, believe me, it has stopped a fight from coming dead in it's track.

I'm never hands on, lets get physical with my dogs, except for playing, but if its going to stop something that could potentially harm another animal or human, trust me. I have thrown computer chairs across the training ring to break up a fight during playtime. We had a dog that was going after a five year old girl(it was a rott/pit mix, rehab training from fighting home) and noise from pots and pans didn't work, citronella spray, nothing. I was the first one to the observation area and threw a stool at the dog and broke its leg. I was so upset that I did that, but it was either a reconstructed face or a dogs leg...which would you pick?

One of my first experiences with a dog was my grandparents Black Poodle. The first time I got to meet a GSD, I just about pooped my pants. But that GSD was as sweet as apple pie. The only other negative reaction I had was to a neighbor's loose Dobie. That was when I was about 9. I outran him, barely. My crime? Walking down the street in front of his house. Most of my life, we were not personally capable of keeping a pet and would only have one for a short time, if that. Otherwise, I would get to visit with my granparents' pets, a Black Poodle, an Apricot Poodle, and assorted cats. But I have always wanted a dog, even though I didn't know as much as I do, now. I was 40 when we got Shadow. And he is my forever dog.
 
People may not realize it but he is a mix of two northern breeds. Siberian Husky, of course. But Labs also come from the north, getting their start in Newfoundland and the Island of Labrador. His temperment is primarily Husky, as is his metabolism and a good deal of physiology. He didn't act like most Labs I have known, including one I owned for a while when I was 23. Reading about Husky breed traits made sense, which changed my expectations of him and allowed things to flow more smoothly. So, I do feel that breed traits can make a difference as to how strong or soft you need to be leader. And what you can expect. There are Sibes that have won off-leash obedience awards. And ran off the first time something more interesting than a treat came along. And fast! I was following a Husky that was loose in our town. Just a casual lope was about 15 to 20 mph, the speed of a trained human track star of olympic quality. Full speed is somewhere between 30 and 40 mph. Even Shadow's casual trot is a speed walk for someone of my height and stride.
 
So, my philosophical resignation is that all the obedience training I may be able to do is to provide that chance that, should he get loose or in trouble, he may just listen to me long enough to recall so that I can re-leash. Of course, he's a work in progress. Then, again, so am I.
 

I have no problem with doing whatever works to save an animal or a human from harm (although, I, like you, don't like it when I have to do it).  What bothers me is when people feel they must get physical with their dogs for simple breaches of obedience.  IMO, if I have a dog that is not complying with what I've asked, the first thing I do is evaluate whether the dog has actually learned what I was attempting to teach.  I want to know that the dog has heard the command (sometimes, when they are intensely focused on something, they can be less likely to hear us - one reason I try to tell people not to say "come" until they have the dog's attention by using name, noises, etc.), and I want to be sure there's no physical reason why the dog is unwilling to comply.  One student found that her dog refused to sit because he had injured his leg playing at the dog park.  To me, the first answer should not be to "dominate", it should be to discern what the real problem is, and deal with the discovery humanely whenever possible.   If by dominance, one means leadership (the benevolent kind), that's ok.  But, if by dominance, one means that the dog must comply no matter what, and we need to "show him who's boss" then I'm not on board with that mentality.

BTW, Karyn, didn't you say you used to breed Huskies?  Any photos of them in the show ring to share with us on the photo section?

I have found many of the Northern breeds to be less biddable than some other breeds, which often translates to "anti-social" which may not be quite accurate, since many seem social with their owners and known dogs, but more aloof with strangers.  I find that owners have much more luck with these dogs if they start training them from young puppyhood than if they adopt at an older age, but of course, all dogs and owners are different, and some have incredible success.  I do not consider them good dogs for newbie owners, but then a lot of dogs fit into that category.  I also find that owners who try to dominate them physically are often frustrated, and sometimes even give up training because they think their breed is "too stubborn to be trained".  I'd like them all to check out my student's dog (the mal/GSD) who is now doing intermediate agility and loving it - and who works off lead in a group class without getting into any mischief. []

I had to dig out pictures.
I was not showing them, didn't have the time.
I purchased a few from a breeder who was divorcing his wife, they split the stock down 50/50, I bought his share.
These pictures I had to scan, no digital camera then.

[linkhttp://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/CCI00000.jpg]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/CCI00000.jpg[/link]

[linkhttp://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/CCI00002.jpg]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/CCI00002.jpg[/link]

Ooh, a good one, family member with one of my Huskies, then, no leash, no nothing,
 
[linkhttp://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/CCI00004.jpg]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/CCI00004.jpg[/link]

Hope you can see them good enough, I didn't feel like doing one at a time.......