Corn gluten meal, revisited

Schlep what is the above emoticon supposed to mean?

I originally had something typed out and decided to remove it.

That would be an interesting read. From what I've seen, some holistic food companies are more interested in appealing to the customer than the AAFCO and only mention them begrudgingly, as if it were a thing of shame to meet AAFCO requirements. It leads to an interesting ethical quandry. Which company might have a better balance for your dog? The one that produces a food that seems to work, even if it includes ingredients you may not agree with, or the one that says what you want to hear and makes a food that fits in your paradigm, whether it meets the AAFCO or not or any kind of minimum requirements?
 
Some foods are unbalanced on purpose, such as racing dog foods. Even then, those dogs are monitored. It still boils down to the owner(s) keeping an eye on things, so to speak.
 
Just the same, I would be interested in reading that report, good or bad. And Schlep is right, what I feed Shadow is not considered premium, here.Sure, the food may not be perfect, but none is. And I don't think it's inconsistent to supplement whatever you feed, ala Sandra.

ORIGINAL: papillon806
I also want to add that through my researching, I have found that the formulation of dog food is more than just high-quality ingredients; it's the BALANCE of nutrients that is essential.

 
This is something I brought up a while back as I suspect that most of the 'top name brands' use this as their main platform.  I've also seen this belief from a nutritionist working at one of the biggest vet schools that also belongs to one of my communities. 
 
I think it's the science of that balance that the nutritionist looks at regardless of the ingredients, no matter what the food.  And frankly, I'm sure there is something to that....although I would rather have both !
 
I'd be interested in the results of these tests as well !

We are also in the process of testing the foods I listed in a survey in an earlier thread, and are noticing that their ratio of proteins to carbs to vit/minerals are way off due to the excess of each. Will report back when we get a finalized analysis.

 
 Does this mean that even though the amount of protein, vitamins and the calcium to phosphorus ratio are similar in the nutrient profile of different foods,  some of these foods may be unbalanced because of excesses that aren't apparent when reading the nutrient profiles?

Yes...we have found that the calcium/phosphorus (for example) are quite different from batch to batch....not completely sure as to why this is at the moment.  We also have found that some of the nutrient profiles show what they added (as far as vit/mins) but with the addition of the "super" protein sources and so many "nutritious" grains, they are actually much higher, resulting in a higher level of ash and residue than listed.  We are currently looking into if this is acceptable ranges according to AAFCO regulations (their testing on whether or not a company is true to their label) to make sure they are in violation, although it is still worth noting even if they are.  

we have found that the calcium/phosphorus (for example) are quite different from batch to batch....not completely sure as to why this is at the moment.

Calcium content in bone and other tissues varies extremely widely depending on the forage and supplements offered to the food animal.  I live in an area that is very, very lacking in calcium, which in its turn creates a situation where available selenium is bound to the soil and cannot be taken up by plants, in turn leading to low Vitamin E production.  Animals kept on this forage with no interference will test very low for levels of Se and Ca.  We also have high soil and forage delivered copper, by the way.

Other people I know live in very high-Ca, high Se areas, but with low copper.

I help this situation in two ways - I add calcium to the soil about every three weeks, and I supplement directly.  I can imagine that animals used for pet feed  will therefore vary widely since there's a huge range of blood/tissue levels of these elements that are acceptable for good health (with the exception of Se, which has a very low range between deficiency and toxicity).

Incidentally, we just buried our 16 year old "barn cat", who ate nothing but rodents and birds his whole life.  Keke had a congenital heart murmur, which is probably what took him in the end since he was evidentally hale and hearty the very day he passed.  Other than that, he checked out at the vet every single year as 100% healthy (bloodwork confirmed during his last seven years).  He had a long, lush coat which shed out beautifully every year, never had a UTI in his life (he was neutered), and the only time he went to the vet for a problem was one time when he got in a fight with a dog and had to get antibiotics.

I have lots of farm friends with similiar stories.  If well cared for in other ways (spuetering, yearly vaccs and regular worming, and preventing accidents as much as possible), their barn cats live long happy and kibble-free lives.

This makes me suspect that corn gluten meal is actually not a necessary part of a cat's diet.  Sorry Ron, you know I just have to say it.   Not cats that are eating the diet that is natural to them, anyway.

I don't have anything against corn gluten meal particularly except that I prefer it not be in the kibble I feed my dogs.   Oh, and I DO have a cat and of course a dog, that are allergic to it.  I just didn't want to let Ron down since he seemed to expect this type of response.  Except that I can't bring myself to call the commercial food makers Satan since I'm under a vow right now.  []   Someone else will have to do that for ya, Ron.  []

Except that I can't bring myself to call the commercial food makers Satan since I'm under a vow right now. Someone else will have to do that for ya, Ron.

 
Oh, Rebecca, pretty please, with a cherry on top?
 
You were the one that pointed out that growing corn was anything but cheap. I still wonder, then, how people get away with calling it a cheap filler. Yeah for the barn cats. There's a bunch of city cats that don't have access to the field mice. My cat wouldn't even go after a mouse in the house. Why? I gave her all the food she could stand. It was that evil Purina DeliCat.
 
"Hey Satan, paide my dues,
Playing in a rockin' band.
Hey Mama, look at me.
I'm on my way to the promised land ....
 
I'm on the highway to hell ..."
 
AC/DC.
 

Brookcove-- I agree with you that a cat without CGM in it's diet will be perfectly fine (especially if it's on a "natural" diet or a canned diet), however I was just trying to justify it's use in *some* commercial dry pet foods (Eagle Pack, etc) showing there is a practical use and it's not just the company trying to get out as cheap as possible

My parents too had a cat that "adopted them" and ate nothing but canned food they left out and whatever the heck it ate outside, lol.  It lived to be 19  

Here is a link to a study comparing Corn Gluten Meal with Chicken Meal and Meat Meal.
 
 
[linkhttp://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1250243]http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1250243[/link]

abbysdad---I don't think that study is a good representation because the cats fed corn gluten meal were fed no animal proteins what-so-ever....they were fed CGM as an only protein source, which we know is not good.....so that doesn't really say that CGM as an extra ingredient paired with a meat meal is beneficial when it comes to urine pH.

I didn't do the study[]

Hey Ron - do a search on my posts - I'd be curious to know when I ever called corn a cheap filler? I don't like corn because it's a weird, highly manipulated beast and very costly in terms of the environment to produce.  I'd never feed a steady diet of corn over the lifetime of any animal, even a ruminant.  I feel so strongly about that, that I stake my livelihood (my farm) on that philosophy.

I am not saying corn is intrinsically bad.  I believe simply that today, in general, we depend on it way too much and that as a society we haven't thoroughly thought out the possible consequences.  I base my own feeding decisions based on that belief. 

I really don't understand why you are so defensive, Ron - I respect your decisions and viewpoints and wish for the sake of more pleasant dialog that you would show some respect for mine.  Again, I invite you to search my posts and tell me when I have ever remonstrated anyone for a food choice.

Le's be friends, OK?  []

Hey Ron - do a search on my posts - I'd be curious to know when I ever called corn a cheap filler?

Brook my interpratation on what Ron said was that inbetween the usual comments of 'corn is a cheap filler' or 'manufactures use it as a source of cheap protein' you may have piped in and said that corn isnt 'cheap' to grow",infact is is anything but cheap to grow".Perhaps you said it's an expensive grain to grow??

Could be totally wrong,but thats my take on what he said.