I cant belive I've been feeding my dogs junk food!

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

    any product having passed an AAFCO feeding trial is worthy of being tested on your dog if you are looking for another product.


    I personally hope my dogs live longer than six months and think the AAFCO feeding trials are a joke.


    better to test for 6 months on research dogs than 6 months on pets and have a recall...
    • Gold Top Dog
    We that lost or almost lost our dogs to ProHeart6 have felt our dogs were part of the reserach.  They wanted COMPLETE total records of all the dogs  We could be wrong, but we think they were trying to find where their product was failing and using our dogs to do so.  More should have been done before it was release--so say tahe FDA as well.
     
    SO I feel the same about test feeding.  I doubt the food is gonna kill any dog, but it can determined if the dog's health goes down, up, or stays the same, if the dogs like the food, etc.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: sooner

    ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

    I guess they treat themselves better than they do their pets.....


    Or maybe they just don't know any better...


    I agree, and most people I talk to about dog food, don't until you point out some facts about the food they are feeding their dog. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: sandra_slayton

    We that lost or almost lost our dogs to ProHeart6 have felt our dogs were part of the reserach.  They wanted COMPLETE total records of all the dogs  We could be wrong, but we think they were trying to find where their product was failing and using our dogs to do so.  More should have been done before it was release--so say tahe FDA as well.

    SO I feel the same about test feeding.  I doubt the food is gonna kill any dog, but it can determined if the dog's health goes down, up, or stays the same, if the dogs like the food, etc.



    Right now there is a serious problem with foods and supplements coming from China. Because their prices are so much lower than US suppliers, the entire supplement and vitamin business is being taken over by the Chinese. Just to give and example, over 70% of Ascorbic acid ( Vitamin C) now comes from China.  The FDA inspects almost none of this. Yu know that if they are inspecting none of the the things that we are ingesting every day, then counting on them to do anything about pet foods is like waiting for the moon to turn into green cheese. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Didn't read the article yet, but saw on AOL when turned 'puter on that we are banning a lot of the fish comeing from China.  need to ban more than that if you ask me--or the owners of dogs who got sick or died.  I had read about an illegal vet med being in a lot of the fish coming from over there.
    • Gold Top Dog
    From the Dog Food Project under ingredients to avoid:
    "Chicken byproducts are much less expensive and less digestible than the chicken muscle meat.The ingredients of each batch can vary drastically in ingredients (heads, feet, bones etc.) as well as quality, thus the nutritional value is also not consistent. Don't forget that byproducts consist of any parts of the animal OTHER than meat. If there is any use for any part of the animal that brings more profit than selling it as "byproduct", rest assured it will appear in such a product rather than in the "byproduct" dumpster."

     
    I have seen that list evolve over time, I will not be surprised to see by-products come off as she continues to learn more about nutrition.  I believe corn was on it at one time, as was tomato pomace, most of the definitions about the ingredients on that site, where taken from the old natura site and slighty rephrased, since Natura has upgraded there site they have changed some of the verbage of there definitions so they are not quite as exact anymore. That said, the  Natura ingredient wizard is just a marketing tool for there products.
     
    Timberwolf brags about there meals containing lots of organ meat, and blood thus making it the best meal available. Sounds like a by-product meal to me.
     
    From TWO site:
    There are different grades (classifications) of meals however and are graded (classified) by protein content, ash content and price. Some are of very high quality. For example, our lamb meal is imported from New Zealand and is a special low ash high protein (8% ash, 70% protein) lamb meal that we have classified and most of the bone is filtered out (all lamb, chicken, beef meals contain a lot of bone because it#%92s made from what is left over from cutting away steaks or boneless chicken breast for example). It#%92s the most expensive and probably the best lamb meal in the country as it#%92s made from the organs and contains a lot of blood, which gives it a very complete amino acid profile.
     
    And Diamond will come right out and tell you that by-product meal is better, but the marketers have everyone convinced it is not so they use regular meal and charge more for it.  See the quote and link below
     
    These
    marketing gurus have convinced the public that chicken by-product meal is
    bad, lamb meal and chicken meal are good, and so everybody charges more for
    them

     
    [linkhttp://home.alltel.net/cjevans/drake/letter.htm]http://home.alltel.net/cjevans/drake/letter.htm[/link]
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I personally think by-products are a healthy supplement to meat meal in a food since they are a natural part of the diet and can contain lots of vitamins and minerals, depending on what they are, but of course you can never know because it is all hidden by the use of the word 'by-products'.  But why is it that just about every food that uses by-product meal uses it to replace meat meal instead of supplementing it?  I see some with by-products that will have simply "chicken" but as we know that contains mostly water. You would never see a wolf, or a wild feline or any other carnivore or even omnivore kill prey and simply devour everything BUT the muscle meat.  That's why it makes me think that they only use it because it's much, much cheaper.  It costs pet food companies virtually nothing as it would just be dumped in the garbage if it wasn't going into pet food. Therefore, it guantarees mich bigger profit margins.  It's a known fact that the first commerical pet foods were made from waste products of the human food industry due to low cost and availablility, not because they were healthiest. And they fool the consumer by putting 'chicken' first and then 'by-product meal' after it so the consumer thinks there is more chicken than by-product.  Why is the by-product always a meal and the muscle meat always contains water?

    As for Timberwolf, organs and blood does not = byproducts.  Byproducts can be anything including feet, necks, intestines, unfertilized eggs etc...  I doubt that byproducts in dog food includes anything that would be purchased and consumed by humans including liver, tripe and beef heart. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

    __________________________
    This is a dog food rating system created to help people find a quality food. This is not concrete but to be used as a guide. This was created by Fredalina of the GDR.


    Giving Dry Dog Food a Grade:
    Start with a grade of 100:

    For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points


    For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points

    If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

    For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points

    If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewer's rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points


    If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points

    If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points

    If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3 points

    If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points

    If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points

    If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points

    If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

    If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points

    If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to beef), subtract 1 point

    If it contains salt, subtract 1 point

    Extra Credit:

    If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points


    If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points

    If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points

    If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points

    If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

    If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

    If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points

    If the food contains barley, add 2 points

    If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points

    If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point

    If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point

    For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "turkey" as 2 different sources), add 1 point


    If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

    If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point



    94-100+ = A
    86-93 = B
    78-85 = C
    70-77 = D
    <70 = F   Authority Harvest Baked / Score 116 A+

    Bil-Jac Select / Score 68 F

    Canidae / Score 112 A+

    Chicken Soup Senior / Score 115 A+

    Diamond Maintenance / Score 64 F

    Diamond Lamb Meal & Rice / Score 92 B

    Diamond Large Breed 60+ Formula / Score 99 A

    Natural Balance Ultra Premium / Score 122 A+

    Natural Balance  Duck and Potato / Score 106 A+

    Hund-n-Flocken Adult Pet (lamb) by Solid Gold / Score 93 B

    Iams Lamb Meal & Rice Formula Premium / Score 73 D

    Innova Pet / Score 114 A+

    Innova Evo / Score 114 A+

    Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+

    Merrick Grammy Pot Pie/ Score 118 A+

    Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Puppy / Score 87 B

    Pet Gold Adult with Lamb & Rice / Score 23 F

    ProPlan Natural Turkey & Barley / Score 103 A+

    Purina Beneful / Score 17 F

    Purina Pet / Score 62 F

    Purina Come-n-Get It / Score 16 F

    Royal Canin BullPet / Score 100 A+

    Royal Canin Natural Blend Adult / Score 106 A+

    Sensible Choice Chicken and Rice / Score 97 A

    Science Diet Advanced Protein Senior 7+ / Score 63 F

    Science Diet for Large Breed Puppies / Score 69 F

    Wellness Super5 Mix Chicken / Score 110 A+

    Wolf King Adult Pet (bison) by Solid Gold / Score 97 A

    Some foods that have all ready been rated:


    My problem with this "test," is that it's very obvious that the person who wrote it really likes Innova Evo.  Evo is one of those foods that is great for those dogs who can handle the high protien and no grains, but works very badly for dogs that can't handle it.  Not to mention you can't follow these guidelines if yo have a large breed pup.  Nature's Logic, the food I feed ,rates at 104, which is a B+ and it has worked better for Joey than any other dog food I've fed.  I agree that we should be ingredients concience, but their are many good dog foods out there and some of them are simple and grain heavy for a reason.  I wouldn't go around saying to someone who feeds California Natural that Evo is a better food. That's like saying a Honda Civic is a worse vehicle than a Honda CRV - they meet different needs. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: jojo the pogo

    My problem with this "test," is that it's very obvious that the person who wrote it really likes Innova Evo.  Evo is one of those foods that is great for those dogs who can handle the high protien and no grains, but works very badly for dogs that can't handle it.  Not to mention you can't follow these guidelines if yo have a large breed pup.  Nature's Logic, the food I feed ,rates at 104, which is a B+ and it has worked better for Joey than any other dog food I've fed.  I agree that we should be ingredients concience, but their are many good dog foods out there and some of them are simple and grain heavy for a reason.  I wouldn't go around saying to someone who feeds California Natural that Evo is a better food. That's like saying a Honda Civic is a worse vehicle than a Honda CRV - they meet different needs. 


     
    I agree completely.  You need to understand why different ingredients are good or bad because every dog's needs are different.  I much prefer to refer to the advice on [linkhttp://www.dogfoodproject.com]www.dogfoodproject.com[/link].
    • Gold Top Dog
    Here is Wysong rebuttal to that rating system.
     
    Rate Your Dog Food
    How to grade your dog's food: Start with a grade of 100:

    1) For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points
    (There is no scientific evidence that the components of food animals that are called “by-products” are dangerous or inferior nutritionally to muscle meat. In fact, since they include elements of various parts of the body such as organs, tendons, ligaments, and trimmings, they are usually superior. Are we to throw such nutritionally superior foods away because of a myth, and waste valuable food resources?)


    2) For every non-specific animal source
    ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points

    (This is a perpetuation of the myth promoted by Whole Dog Journal. First of all, there would be no reason for a manufacturer to hide this information. That aside, naming the specific animal a meat comes from is of little health or nutritional value. If the concern is food sensitivity or allergy, then the cause—feeding one food meal after meal—should most certainly not be promoted as this list does.
    [link>http://www.wysong.net/controversies/wdj.shtml]Wysong Response to Whole Dog Journal[/link]
    )

    3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

    (This is true only if the food is properly stabilized by scientifically proven food antioxidants. Otherwise these synthetics would be better than nothing since oxidized food components are more dangerous than these antioxidants. So the best choice is proven natural antioxidants combined with light and oxygen barrier packaging. Next best are the synthetic antioxidants, such as those mentioned above. Worst is ineffective food antioxidants such as “vitamin C,” “vitamin A,” or the wrong epimers of “vitamin E.” Worst of all is “no preservatives.”
    [link>http://www.wysong.net/page/WOTTPWS/PROD/FP/OXHERPHOL]Oxherphol[/link])

    4) For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points
    (A relatively unimportant point since the main danger is feeding ANY starch source, meal after meal. This danger is ignored in these criteria. [linkDangers>http://www.wysong.net/cornsoy.shtml]Dangers of Grains[/link])

    5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewer's rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points
    (Another unimportant point since it is the danger of starch, not how many sources it comes from, that is the important point. See #4 link above.)

    6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points

    (Meat meals are cooked five different times. The authors do not seem to understand the vitiating effects of heat processing and its role in creating toxins. Fresh meats are obviously superior to cooked meals, but this author only focuses on how much protein is in a food without regard for its quality or how it is processed. [link>http://www.wysong.net/dontbefooled/dontgetit.shtml]Dangers of Processing[/link])


     7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points
    (Agreed. Colorants appeal to people, not animals.)

    8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3 points
    (This is a myth. Corn is superior nutritionally to many other starch sources. All kibble-type foods require starch to bind the ingredients into a nugget. To make pet food choices based upon where the starch comes from is to miss the point of nutrition altogether. [linkhttp://www.wysong.net/PDFs/healthiergrains.pdf]Comparison Chart[/link])

    9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points

    (They are doubling up on the corn myth. Wysong has used corn in some of its products for over 25 years and the products have been fed to tens of thousands of animals through multiple generations. The spectacular results speak for themselves and show the myth, regardless of its popularity, to be the falsehood it is. [link>http://www.wysong.net/testimonials.shtml]Testimonials[/link])


    10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points
    (This would mean that the only fats a carnivore is genetically programmed for are fish oils. Watch any canine or feline in the wild and it will be clear that fish oil is not the only fat they consume. It would be a minor component if in the diet at all. Land carnivores get omega-3 fatty acids primarily from grazing herbivores, not fish. Carnivores require a balance of essential fatty acids. Fish oil would not provide that. Also, the omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil are very fragile, degraded by the heat of processing, light, and air and thus subject to conversion to toxins in foods left on shelves for months. [link>http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/nutritious_oils.pdf]EFA Monograph[/link])


    11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points
    (That has no scientific backing. The danger is feeding ANY combination of animal protein meal after meal. [linkrocessed ;Pet Foods[/link]>http://www.wysong.net/dontbefooled/100complete.shtml]The Myth of 100% Complete ;Processed ;Pet Foods[/link]
    )

    12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

    (Why? Soy is no more dangerous than about any other plant ingredient used in any pet food. All plants contain natural toxins, but they only cause problems if fed constantly. Again, they miss the most important point and instead wish to perpetuate simplistic myths.
    See: [linkhttp://www.wysong.net/toxicity.shtml]Natural Toxins Chart[/link], [linkhttp://www.wysong.net/soymyth.shtml]Soy Myth[/link]

    13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points
    (Any food with an ingredient that an animal is allergic to should be eliminated, of course. But they ignore the true cause of allergy—the continuous feeding of a heat processed food regardless of its ingredient composition. Wheat starch is no more dangerous to pets than rice starch, potato starch, tapioca starch, or any other starch. But it, like corn and soy, makes a convenient boogeyman ingredient if people wish to follow folklore, not reason or science. See: [link>http://www.wysong.net/controversies/claims.shtml#claim1]Allergies.[/link])

    14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to beef), subtract 1 point
    (See #13)

    15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point

    (Natural salt can contain over 74 trace minerals that are commonly lacking in human and animal diets. Processed and refined salt should be avoided, but not natural salt. [linkhttp://www.wysong.net/PDFs/healthycondiments.pdf]Whole Salt Monograph[/link])


    Extra Credit:
    1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points
    (Organic foods are important, but no single food, organic or not, should be fed meal after meal. See # 11)

    2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points
    (Hardly is this true since some breed groups are notorious for perpetuating simplistic myths, and a breeder could be someone with no education at all. Nutritionists give no assurance either since they are responsible for coming up with the “100% complete” myth as well as meals like jello, diet pop, and instant potatoes for deathly ill people in hospitals. People must become informed themselves, not rely on so-called experts.)

    3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points
    (Baking destroys more food elements and creates more toxins than HTST extrusion. The author does not understand basic food processing technology. [linkhttp://www.wysong.net/page/WOTTPWS/PROD/EDUAIDS/ED090]Rationale For Animal Nutrition[/link])

    4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points
    (Agreed if they are of the right kind, in sufficient numbers, and have not been destroyed by processing. Wysong, incidentally, was the first to use probiotics and prebiotics. [linkProbiotic>http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/probiotic.pdf]Probiotic Monograph[/link])

    5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points
    (Agreed, with the understanding that any food should be fed in variety, and that fruit is not an essential element in a carnivore's diet.)

    6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points
    (Again, that terrible boogeyman, “corn.” See #5, and #9 in the previous list.)

    7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points
    (Agreed provided the food is not fed meal after meal.)

    8 ) If the food contains barley, add 2 points
    (Another myth evidently intended to promote some commercial product with barley in it. Barley is not a magic ingredient; it is just another starch (sugar) source. [linkhttp://www.wysong.net/PDFs/healthiergrains.pdf]Grain Comparison Chart[/link])

    9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points
    (Provided the flax is properly stabilized and given the same caveats mentioned above with regard to fish oil. [linkOxherphol>http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/oxherphol.pdf]Oxherphol Monograph[/link], [linkEFA>http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/nutritious_oils.pdf]EFA Monograph[/link])

    10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point
    (Another myth. Oats are not a magic ingredient and have no merit over other grains fed in variety. They are just another starch (sugar) source. See #8)

    11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point
    (Essential fatty acids are much better obtained from meats. But this author advocates no meat fats, but rather plant oil no carnivore would ever consume in the wild.)

    12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "?" as 2 different sources), add 1 point
    (Different animal source proteins in the same food, fed continuously, are not a solution, they are the problem. [linkrocessed ;Pet Foods[/link]>http://www.wysong.net/dontbefooled/100complete.shtml]The Myth of 100% Complete ;Processed ;Pet Foods[/link])

    13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point
    (The author is not aware of pet food regulations. Some such ingredients are not permitted on labels. A properly formulated food with “by-product” cartilage and bone contains a bounty of [linkGlucosamine[/link]>http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/contifingluc.pdf]Glucosamine[/link] and [linkhttp://www.wysong.net/PDFs/contifingluc.pdf]Chondroitin[/link].)

    14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point.
    (That#%92s what organic is. No manufacturer tests every component of their foods for these chemicals even if they are using organics. Also, virtually no food is completely free of such chemicals. Thus this criterion is an impossible one, but it sounds good.)

    15) 94-100+ = A 86-93 = B 78-85 = C 70-77 = D 69 = F
    (The problem is, the foods based upon myth get an A, while the most nutritious and health promoting foods could flunk!)

    • Gold Top Dog
    Well, we have come back from vacation and started our Pyr girl on Blue Buffalo. She first picked out all the pieces of the BB and ate them leaving the SD. I thought ok, well not bad. This morning however, she basically did the same with the BB as with the SD before. Will give her a couple of weeks on BB and go from there, thanks everyone for all the help and advice!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Good Luck![;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Food update! Shiloh is actually eating her breakfast and her dinner! Whooo Hoooo! Now to see how long it lasts. I did find out that Great Pyrenees are picky eaters. Our new puppy is on the ground as of July 2, so  when I talk to the breeder I will ask him about any ideas to keep her eating! Thanks to everyone on the forum who gave great ideas and helped me to feel better about the food that I was feeding my dogs. [:)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ..