Homecooking - does it need to be complicated ?

i make my own food. i boil chicken legs & what ever organ meat that i feel like (pork hearts, chicken livers, beef livers etc..), chop it up & add a little rice & voila! dinner! jersey loves veggies like carrots, peas & salads & fruits like apples. so whatever i'm having, she gets samples of. i've been doing this for 4 years & she looks great & is totally healthy. even the vet comments on how good she looks. i'm glad that i didn't get caugh up in this whole food recall mess!

make sure everything's pretty close to the NRC numbers.

 
see, I don't really believe the NRC numbers are the be-all and end-all of nutrition. How do you know they haven't missed some important micronutrients?  How do you know that their data, mostly derived from short-term studies, actually applies to long-term health? How do you know for sure that those numbers are optimal for YOUR dog?
 
I'm very suspicious of nutrition studies. Most nutrition studies are very poor quality scientifically speaking. If you look at human studies of nutrition, one of the big trends you see is that a) humans are generally a lot healthier if they consume a wide variety of fresh fruits and veg; and b) if they try to replicate this effect by consuming purified vitamins, they can't.
 
and then there is the taurine debacle. They thought they had worked out all the nutritional requirements for cats, prepared "fully balanced and complete" cat diets, and proceeded to give untold thousands of cats heart failure from taurine deficiency. Even without knowing anything about taurine or nutrition, those cats would have been fine if they'd been fed a species-appropriate fresh, varied diet instead of a scientifically balanced diet.

I don't complicate things, too much. I do try to figure up my calcium/phosphorus, every week or two, to make sure I'm "close enough". I feed a very wide variety of foods (including brain, tripe, liver, heart, and kidney) and mostly don't worry about it. My once very sick dog is now a very healthy dog. I supplement with calcium, fish oil, and condition-specific supplements.

My dogs get raw meat, raw leafy veggies, and cooked root veggies. They seem to get the most out of that mix, and I've tried everything[] They haven't had kibble in over a year, now. I've been back and forth with homemade and commercial food since I've had Emma, and it's been an interesting ride[] I'm too afraid of commercial foods, right now, to even use  top quality canned foods.

see, I don't really believe the NRC numbers are the be-all and end-all of nutrition. How do you know they haven't missed some important micronutrients? How do you know that their data, mostly derived from short-term studies, actually applies to long-term health? How do you know for sure that those numbers are optimal for YOUR dog?

 
I don't, but you tell me how I would have any idea if I didn't use them? I don't feed her the same thing over and over because it meets the NRC's numbers, if that's what you're worried about. I feed her a quite varied diet, but I do aim to be "pretty close" to the NRC's numbers, because that's the best guide I have.

I don't feed her the same thing over and over because it meets the NRC's numbers, if that's what you're worried about. I feed her a quite varied diet, but I do aim to be "pretty close" to the NRC's numbers, because that's the best guide I have.

 
Chelsea - I've been trying to do exactly the same thing as you (get close to NRC numbers with each recipe).    I "allow" myself to be below the guidelines by up to 10% and over by 25 - 50% (up to 500% for beta carotene dervied Vit A and up to 200% for B Vitamins). 
 
The NRC numbers are pretty much the only thing we have to go by for homecooked and by using them as a guide I could see that some nutrients were either way low or totally missing until I tweeked my recipes.  I guess we COULD do the conversion to find the dry weight of what we're feeding and then try to compare to the AAFCO values - I've actually been thinking of doing that - has anyone tried it ?  It would be a true test of mathematic skills ! LOL

I don't sweat it too much. I also agree that the NRC recommendations couldn't possibly take into account for nutrients we don't even know about, but that's just me. 
 
I feed sojo's currently (I lightly cook the meat).  I vary the meats and veggies/fruits as much as possible. They get a special meal from time to time that might be just egg, yogurt and rice.  I think the bases are pretty well covered.  If I don't do sojo's it's the strombeck recipes, which I can vary the carbs even more.
 
Nobody obsessed over dogs' diets years ago, and while I agree if you were to feed soley chicken and rice, you'd have an imbalance but if you take care to see that most nutrients are provided, you'll be doing ok.

that's my unscientific non-dog nutritionist opinon. I am glad I didn't feed any of the recalled foods... I had just decided to switch to cooking again a month before it all started.
 
And FWIW, I just got 2 of my 3 dog's bloodwork done (the 3rd is getting his done now with his dental) and they are all great w/in ranges.
 

The NRC numbers are pretty much the only thing we have to go by for homecooked and by using them as a guide I could see that some nutrients were either way low or totally missing until I tweeked my recipes.  I guess we COULD do the conversion to find the dry weight of what we're feeding and then try to compare to the AAFCO values - I've actually been thinking of doing that - has anyone tried it ?  It would be a true test of mathematic skills ! LOL

I do just that.  It isn't all that difficult if you put the recipe into nutritiondata.com - that gives you the total amount of dry matter, so you can compare to AAFCO numbers.  I try to make sure my recipes fall within AAFCO guidelines and come pretty close to NRC numbers.

and how do you check that your ingredients actually contain the nutrients you thinkg they contain in the amounts you think they contain it?  nutritional content of foods varies wildly by the soil they are grown in, what the animals are fed before slaughter, etc.
 
and have you checked that the studies the NRC used to come up with their numbers were well-done and accurate and actually measured what they purport to measure?   the studies used to come up with the AAFCO guidelines were incapable of measuring optimal nutrition.
 

AAFCO numbers are very similar to the nutrient levels in whole prey.  [linkhttp://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/Nutrient_Content_Whole_Animals.htm]http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/Nutrient_Content_Whole_Animals.htm[/link]

Personally, since I can't/won't feed my pets whole animals, I do the best I can to give them the nutrients they need in a form they can use. AAFCO, NRC, etc. help me find out how to do that. 

and how do you check that your ingredients actually contain the nutrients you thinkg they contain in the amounts you think they contain it? nutritional content of foods varies wildly by the soil they are grown in, what the animals are fed before slaughter, etc.

and have you checked that the studies the NRC used to come up with their numbers were well-done and accurate and actually measured what they purport to measure? the studies used to come up with the AAFCO guidelines were incapable of measuring optimal nutrition.

 
Mudpuppy, what on Earth do you suggest we do? We don't have anything besides the NRC and AAFCO guidelines to try and formulate a "pretty complete" diet. I trust the NRC numbers way more than I trust AAFCO. Do I think the NRC knows everything? Of course not, but they've done some actual research, and come up with some numbers, which is more than I can do. If I don't use them, I'm just blindly throwing foods at my dog. And then if/when she has an awful coat, or other health problems, I'll have no clue if it's a nutrient imbalance, or something else. Will I know for SURE using the NRC numbers, that she's getting a "complete and balanced" diet? No, but I won't have ANY idea if I don't use them.

I think the point that both Chelsea and I are making is that its probably not a bad idea to check against any known information (NRC and AAFCO).    As I said in an earlier post, before I did that I thought that my varied diet would at least include the minimum for known requirements and in several places they were low or the ratios in the minerals were "out of synch" which could have meant reduced absoption of the ones where I did theoretically have enough.
Perhaps my diet wasn't quite varied enough.  Perhaps the NRC and AAFCO numbers are completely wrong and off course.    Perhaps I am simply overcomplicating things (now there's any oxymoron !).
 
I'm really anxious to hear more stories like Stacita's from those who have been home cooking for most of the life of their dog.  (thank you for that post)
 

I will admit that I've been a bit intimidated by some of the recent posts about all the detail.  Then I remind myself that I DID have my recipe approved and tweaked by a canine nutritionalist.
 
A note here, heart is NOT an organ....it's a muscle meat despite being an organ in the body.
 
My dogs have eaten the same basic diet, with changes in veggies, the tiny bit of fruit that I use, I vary the protein source, but my carb source remains constant with sweet taters.....for THREE years now and they have great coats, great muscles, skin, etc, etc, etc, and their blood work is perfect.

Then I remind myself that I DID have my recipe approved and tweaked by a canine nutritionalist.

 
Glenda, did you make up the original recipe to have it tweaked ?  How much change did the nutritionist suggest ?   I'd like to understand, from your firsthand experience, how well our "common sense" recipes really work;  understanding what the nutritionist had to say about your recipe would help me do that.
I'm seriously considering having Monica Segal review all my recipes.   The recipe she has for Prancer uses ground lamb - not an ingredient I can readily find and I'm not buying a grinder LOL.

It isn't all that difficult if you put the recipe into nutritiondata.com - that gives you the total amount of dry matter, so you can compare to AAFCO numbers.

 
Beth - where do you see the Dry Matter ?  I do see the total amt of water, but I can't locate the dry matter anywhere.    I know we can do the conversions, as as much as I'm addicted to my spreadsheet, I'm trying not to do the math LOL

ORIGINAL: JoAnnDe

It isn't all that difficult if you put the recipe into nutritiondata.com - that gives you the total amount of dry matter, so you can compare to AAFCO numbers.

Beth - where do you see the Dry Matter ?  I do see the total amt of water, but I can't locate the dry matter anywhere.    I know we can do the conversions, as as much as I'm addicted to my spreadsheet, I'm trying not to do the math LOL

It isn't listed as "dry matter", but if you add up the amounts of protein, fat, carbs, and ash - that's the dry matter. It's just simple addition.   Of course you don't have to do this, but I actually enjoy doing the math. [8|]