Dog Community

Posted : 5/4/2007 7:40:23 AM

ORIGINAL: willowchowAnd, I wonder. . .is this supplementing based on the assumption that the dog gets absolutely no other sources of calcium like dairy??

Interestingly (to me, anyway [

]) yogurt has only a tiny bit more calcium than phosphorus, and while I knew cottage cheese isn't a really good source of calcium (although many people think it is, and that's why I checked the numbers), I was surprised that it has significantly more phosphorus than calcium. The numbers for one ounce of each are:

2% cottage cheese -- 19.3 mg. calcium, 42.3 mg. phosphorus
whole milk

lain yogurt -- 33.9 mg. calcium, 26.6 phosphorus

So the yogurt has just enough calcium to balance the phosphorus it contains, but cottage cheese requires the addition of calcium to balance the phosphorus it contains.

These numbers illustrate why it's impossible to add dairy products (yogurt) to balance the phosphorus in meat or other ingredients in a recipe. It doesn't contain enough "extra" calcium to balance anything!

(Figures are from [linkhttp://www.nutritiondata.com]www.nutritiondata.com[/link] )

jessies_mom

Posted : 5/4/2007 7:51:25 AM

On the package of the food you're cooking you should see the total weight. Just estimate how much of the total you're feeding (ie: 1/2 the package ? 1/4 of the package) or buy a postage scale and actually weigh the food.

You need to weigh the food after cooking; when I cook a 16oz. pkg. of bison it weighs 11 oz. after cooking. You an probably find a food scale at Wal-Mart; I got one at Bed Bath and Beyond .

jessies_mom

Posted : 5/4/2007 8:00:17 AM

I just have a real hard time wrapping my brain around this whole "balancing" of calcium. How can you possibly have this general amount of calcium to add to a recipe when depending on what veggies you use the ratios of calcium to phos are going to change. For example, I was told broccoli was very high in phosphorus

That's a good question but I follow the amount in Monica Segal's booklet "Enhancing Commercial Kibble". Her recipes are slightly more than 50% meat followed by a carb and then vegetables so she says veggies don't make up enough of the recipe to be concerned about this, but some vegetables that have a good calcium to phosphorus ratio are; acorn squash, butternut squash, green beans, leaf lettuce, romaine lettuce, spaghetti squash, turnip, and watercress.

brookcove

Posted : 5/4/2007 8:01:06 AM

Yes, Iwas explaining to someone once that she was probably getting muscle cramps because she'd been drinking a lot of milk and was most likely in a Ca deficient state. [sm=eek.gif] Too much Phosphorus from the milk. A daily Caltrate fixed her right up.

ETA: The high Phosphorus in our milk is a modern thing - I forget why now but something to do with modern dairy practices.

jessies_mom

Posted : 5/4/2007 8:06:04 AM

I'm so glad people find that useful. I was afraid I'd be the only one ('afraid' because making it was a lot more work than just calculating Cherokee's amounts once).

Chelsea; When you're making Cherokee's food, do you take into account the nutrients in the ingredients you're using or just add the full amount of each supplement according to the spreadsheet? Because of Jessie's food allergies I can't use the recipes in Monica's Cooked Diet recipes booklet so I'm thinking of using your spreadsheet since the nutrients are according to the NRC guidelines.

jessies_mom

Posted : 5/4/2007 8:10:42 AM

Yes, Iwas explaining to someone once that she was probably getting muscle cramps because she'd been drinking a lot of milk and was most likely in a Ca deficient state. Too much Phosphorus from the milk. A daily Caltrate fixed her right up.

Good advice; [

] When I was pregnant and had cramps in my legs my doctor had me take a calcium supplement and it worked.

JoAnnDe

Posted : 5/4/2007 8:34:02 AM

Chelsea; When you're making Cherokee's food, do you take into account the nutrients in the ingredients you're using or just add the full amount of each supplement according to the spreadsheet? Because of Jessie's food allergies I can't use the recipes in Monica's Cooked Diet recipes booklet so I'm thinking of using your spreadsheet since the nutrients are according to the NRC guidelines.

Hi - I didn't want to throw this thread about calcium off course, so I started a new thread
[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=338058]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=338058[/link]

willowchow

Posted : 5/4/2007 8:47:23 AM

It doesn't contain enough "extra" calcium to balance anything!

OK, I understand.
But, also I notice that you guys are balancing every meal which really isn't the whole premise of homecooked or raw. It's supposed to be balance over time.
And, I still feel like you may have balanced your meal close enough but the next thing you feed is now going to throw you out of balance again. Isn't it?? [sm=party.gif]

Also---I'm giving Willow some homecooked turkey/rice or Evanger's (which is all beef) with rice or potato for one meal a day to stretch out what I've got left for kibble. I'm not adding calcium to anything is that going to be OK??

JoAnnDe

Posted : 5/4/2007 8:55:18 AM

I try to balance the calcium : phosporus for each meal within the range with every meal - but thats a pretty big range so there's leeway built into it.
For the other nutrients - well, that's probably a better discussion for the new post I started

ETA - since Willow has IBS / IBD you probably want to start adding the calcium slowly; build up to the total amt over a week or two. It really depends upon how much meat your adding - if you're only using an ounce or two there's probably enough excess in the kibble to offset, esp if you're only going to do this for a short period of time (ie: not months and months)

jessies_mom

Posted : 5/4/2007 9:06:53 AM

But, also I notice that you guys are balancing every meal which really isn't the whole premise of homecooked or raw. It's supposed to be balance over time.

I cook enough to supplement Jessie's food for a week at a time; she gets about a cup of homecooked a day. 32 oz. of ground turkey is 28oz. cooked; since I add 250mg of calcium for every 3 and a half ounces of meat, I divide 28 by 3.5 and multiply that by 250 to know how much calcium to add. [

]

Myra

Posted : 5/4/2007 9:20:27 AM

All I'm balancing right now is calcium

hosphorus. I cook a large batch at a time (enough for a few days' of one meal a day for two dogs) and add the appropriate amount of ground eggshell to the entire recipe. I use the raw weight of the food, which is what Lew Olson said the 900 mg. of calcium

er pound of food is based on.

IMO, when people talk about achieving balance over time they're referring more to getting the appropriate amount of vitamins, minerals and amino acids by rotating different protein sources and using different veggies (instead of just the calcium

hosphorus issue, which really isn't that hard to balance per meal or recipe).

IIRC, the general recommendations I've read for supplementing kibble or canned dog food is that if you're feeding 1/3 or less of the total diet as home-cooked/raw, then you don't need to worry about supplementing.

chelsea_b

Posted : 5/4/2007 10:23:53 AM

I generally only add calcium for the amount of meat. If one batch of food is 50% veggies by weight, and veggies really don't have much in the way of unbalanced phosphorus, then that's gonna be too much calcium. If I add something like lentils, then I take that into account. But 900 mg per pound of food served generally seems excessive to me. I think 900 mg, or actually 1/2 tsp of eggshell powder (which by my calculations is closer to 1100 mg than 900),

er pound of meat is generally pretty good, because it usually leaves a bit to balance veggies and such too.

chewbecca

Posted : 5/4/2007 8:00:21 PM

Chelsea,

May I post your nutrients spreadsheet on another board?

sallya

Posted : 5/4/2007 9:06:33 PM

The only change I noticed is when I didn't grind them fine enough and the only change was that I saw bits of eggshell in her poo. Since I've been putting it through the coffee grinder I no longer see any eggshell and her poops are just beautiful (LOL - beautiful poop - a concept only a dog lover can understand).

Yes, as a doggie and birdie lover, you have to look at poo to see how they are doing, ha. It is always good when it looks like all is well. Especially when you change food etc...[

]

pamzshihtzu

Posted : 5/4/2007 10:02:45 PM

Hi Sally

I've been following Lew's recipe for over 3 years now for Sedona, and she's done FAB with it. It's easy to make, and she includes the list of supplements and amount of calcium to make EACH recipe "balanced". The recipe is the one for dogs with cancer, but it's ALSO for HEALTHY DOGS. She recommends this recipe as being the closest to a RAW dog food model, because it uses low glycemic carbs vs grain or starch (you could substitute a grain or a starch for one of the veggie portions IF you wanted to, though).

Supplements:
The only adjustment you should make for a "healthy dog" would be to use the Bertes Immune Blend supplement at only 1/2 dose. Or, just use some other multi vitamin/mineral product of your choice (I use the Azmira Mega Pet Daily), but I do use all the other supplements listed also (Bertes Green Blend, or Kelp) + Omega 3 oil cap (Azmira Mega Omega) + extra Vit B Complex, 200 iu of Vit E, and sometimes I'll add in a Taurine supplement about 3 x's per week, and I sometimes add a digestive enzyme also around 3 x's per week. I tend to rotate brands of supplements after I finish one up. I always give her a good probiotic every single day.

As for calcium:
I rotate between eggshell powder and calcium citrate. The rule of thumb, as others have already stated, is: you need 800-900 mg of elemental calcium per POUND OF FOOD.

1/2 tsp eggshell powder = 800-900 mg of elemental calcium. I wash the eggshell, then bake at 350 degrees for 15-20 min. Cool. Grind to a FINE powder in a coffee mill. Keep in tupperware in fridge. I keep it up to 2 mos max, then toss.

BUT, if you use calcium citrate, the amount needed differs, because [1 whole tsp] of NOW FOOD brand Calcium Citrate = only 700 mg of elemental calcium. So you need a tad more than double the amount of calcium citrate as you do eggshell powder.

I alt them about every 3 weeks or so. The reason I do so is because Shih Tzus are prone to kidney issues, and kidney stones form when calcium binds to the oxalates found in veggies (some veggies have more than others). Calcium citrate will not bind to the oxalates. EACH type of calcium has it's pros and cons, so I ALT them. JMO. One thing though, avoid feeding a Shih Tzu any spinach or many "greens" (mustard, collard, kale, etc) as they are VERY high in oxalic acid. Again, JMO. I always boil and drain the veggies before adding to the recipe, because this can help remove a bit of the oxalates (not all though).

RECIPE:
Here's the recipe I use (again, it is also good for healthy dogs, which is why I use it for my Tzu):

[linkhttp://b-naturals.com/Jun2004.php[/link]>http://b-naturals.com/Jun2004.php]http://b-naturals.com/Jun2004.php[/link]

Amount To Feed:
I rotate the meat types and veggie types every "recipe". 1 recipe lasts Sedona about 4.5 days. I feed her at 2.5% of her body wt per day. Here's a calculator that can help you determine how much to feed Trudy per day:

[linkhttp://www.bravorawdiet.com/howmuch.html[/link]>http://www.bravorawdiet.com/howmuch.html]http://www.bravorawdiet.com/howmuch.html[/link]

Each "recipe" makes about 2+ lbs of food. After figuring out how much food Trudy would need per day, I would just divide up the recipe into those amounts and put into individual tupperware containers for each day's meals. I rotate mainly between beef, chicken, and wild salmon, with egg, and alt'g between yogurt and cottage cheese. Note the amount of organ meat you are to use (don't exceed that amount). I do not feed pork or turkey because we had a bad experience with both of those. Variety is important, but I'd keep a few "novelty proteins" for emergencees, so don't feed every meat known to man.

Leave at least 2 types of meat, untried.

I add broth to the meals so that I make sure Sedona gets the water she needs per day. The vet told me she'd get enough water from the "moist food", and she ended up dehydrated (that's when I first started homecooking!). So, she always gets her food served as a soup.

hth!
Pam & Sedona

I need some help, nutrition site for homecooking