Which would you prefer?

I don't consider #1 as using grain fragmenting. This is what I consider grain fragmenting:

Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Rice Gluten, Poultry Fat

  I agree with Kelly; also, rice hulls are used as a source of fiber;    [linkhttp://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=656]http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=656[/link] .  When I said "very good results" this is what I meant; I noticed that the gold hair on her legs seemed shinier but I thought perhaps it was my imagination, but a few days later, DH asked if I had just brushed her because of how shiny she looked, and he doesn't usually notice things like that ( I once bought a new lamp for the living room and he didn't notice the change).  I have said many times that she did great on Eagle Pack so I was pleasantly surprised that she has been doing as well or better on Food # 1.

Jessie's mom---Jessie was able to eat that even with chicken fat in it?

 
   Well she's almost done with current bag of Food # 1 that she's been eating and I just started transitioning her to a potato and rabbit kibble today which uses canola oil as the fat source. Her ears were itchy a few weeks ago and they have been mildly itchy again for about the last five days so we're trying the new food because my veterinary dermatologist wanted us to try a food without chicken fat; she said that dogs with a chicken allergy can sometimes be allergic to chicken fat. Before joining this forum I used to think that dogs couldn't have an allergic reaction to fat but Brookcove and others have dogs who react to different fats; seems my dermatologist agrees.

Well both have ingredients I don't like, but if all I had to choose between were these two I would go with the second one.

Paula

Yeah, Willow can't have chicken or chicken fat either or we have the flare ups.  Have you tried the Sweet Potato and Fish from Natural Balance.  I'm having really, really good results with it. And, I'm adding in Wild Alaskan Salmon oil too.

ORIGINAL: sooner

I don't consider #1 as using grain fragmenting. This is what I consider grain fragmenting:

Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Rice Gluten, Poultry Fat

 
 
How is brewer's rice, brown rice and rice hulls not fragmenting?  Brewer's rice and rice hulls are both fragments of brown rice
 
??

By that logic, any food that includes white and brown rice is guilty of grain fragmenting. And how is two or more types of rice different than having rice and two or three other grains? At least rice is a non-gluten grain, and less likely to cause problems.

It's the old double standard, if Canidae or Innova split, which they do, it is healthy, if anyone else does it, they are being cheap, the company is cutting corners and the food is grain heavy.

abbysdad, I thought you would be interested in this study, I came across it awhile ago and thought it was funny

They feed three premium diets and the owners are blinded, check out the results and conclusion hee hee.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16379629&query_hl=34&itool=pubmed_DocSum

It's the old double standard, if Canidae or Innova split, which they do, it is healthy, if anyone else does it, they are being cheap, the company is cutting corners and the food is grain heavy.

I don't care who it is. If there's one meat and five or six grain fractions, then a fat, then I'm gonna need a real good reason to feed it (I HAVE fed such a food - Holistique is very grain heavy but I liked the grains until they reformulated it recently).

Something like the first one is more useful to me than the one following it:

A "Feed store brand"
Poultry Meal, Chicken, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) and Citric Acid], Rice Flour, Plain Dried Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Wheat Flour, Herring Meal, Dried Whole Eggs, Brewers Dried Yeast, Lecithin, Natural Flavors, Salt, Fish Oil, Potassium Chloride, DL-Methionine, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Yucca Schidigera extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, (more vitamins and minerals, including the dreaded meniadione)

A "Super Premium"
Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Tomato Pomace, Rye Flour, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of vitamin E), Tomatoes (natural source of Lycopene), Rice Bran (from brown rice), Whitefish, Natural Chicken Flavor, Carrots, Spinach, Sweet Potatoes, Apples, Blueberries, Flaxseed, Ground Millet, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride (and vitamins and minerals, not including synthetic vitamin K)

ORIGINAL: abbysdad

It's the old double standard, if Canidae or Innova split, which they do, it is healthy, if anyone else does it, they are being cheap, the company is cutting corners and the food is grain heavy.

 
Well abbysdad, since the identity of these 2 foods has not been revealed, I don't see how "the old double standard" applies here.  Nice try though! []

ORIGINAL: abbysdad

It's the old double standard, if Canidae or Innova split, which they do, it is healthy, if anyone else does it, they are being cheap, the company is cutting corners and the food is grain heavy.

In the end, all kibbles will be heavy on carbs. It's the nature of kibble. Isn't the grain fractions, no-grain argument merely quibble? LOL

Ron

ORIGINAL: sooner

. And how is two or more types of rice different than having rice and two or three other grains? At least rice is a non-gluten grain, and less likely to cause problems.

Because if the rice grains weren't fragmented, than rice would be the first ingredient in the list instead of meat, therefore discerning consumers would be less likely to buy it.  It's just a way to keep the protein source the first on the list.  If I must choose from foods containing a lot of grain I would much rather a food contain a few different whole grains than a bunch of fragments of the same grain which contain little to no nutriotional value (i.e. rice hulls which is mostly silica and has uses such as building material and a substitue for sawdaust and  are barely biodegradable).

Have you tried the Sweet Potato and Fish from Natural Balance. I'm having really, really good results with it. And, I'm adding in Wild Alaskan Salmon oil too.

 
   Jessie ate Eagle Pack Fish most of the summer and I've supplemented her diet with fish oil for several years, so she's not getting either one right now because we're trying to figure out whether or not her itchy ears are caused by a new food allergy. Unfortunately, dogs with food allergies can and often do develop new ones. She had been doing great for about 14 months and then started having flare ups this summer; not nearly as serious as she used to have before she started on allergy shots though. It seemed to be a bad summer for dogs with allergies in our area as my vet said a lot of his allergy dogs were "going crazy."  When Willow had flare ups from chicken or chicken fat, did she itch and develop skin infections?

i.e. rice hulls which is mostly silica and has uses such as building material and a substitue for sawdaust and are barely biodegradable). 

 
  As I said before, rice hulls are a source of fiber. Jessie had very good stools on Food # 1 and her anal glands were much easier to express on this food than any other we've tried.