Who knows their dog is allergic to a food item?

Because if her studies were truly all that great, they'd be published in peer reviewed Journals, not a website where anyone can post anything they want. When she starts publishing in JAVMA, maybe I'll start believing everything she writes, especially when it doesn't agree with my veterinary education. Until then, I, and everyone else, should take what she writes with a grain of salt. The fact that she works closely with veterinarians and nutritionists makes her information somewhat better, but its still secondhand information as far as I'm concerned. She does have decent information, don't get me wrong, its much better than most of what I see posted on the internet, but her website should never be the end-all, be-all of canine nutrition.

What part of Lindas website don't you like?
AND I think the biggest thing for me is this...there is nothing better in the world then personal experience.  The doctors can tell you anything they want...many of them having no exerience with what they are talking about,,,only what was taught to them, and often what is preached to them by food and drug companies.  Veterinarians talking about diets and food would be the best example of that...with their recommendations (which many recommend) of  Royal Canin for instance.    And I don't even what to get into any conversations about drugs and doctors or veterinarians.   Linda Arndt has raised many generations of her breed the Great Danes..and has studied and ran tests herself on them and food and growth problems.  She has written tons of information on what she has found,,,and some of it does disagree with some studies found elsewhere....such as the Perdue Study on bloat where she politely disagrees with some of it and tells why.   Now, do I want to listen to the doctor that never had a Great Dane... fed one, had one die of bloat on them,  have one that had bone problems..etc etc etc.  or do I want to read what a person that has raised many Danes and studied them and their health problems...and eventually spread that study into all dogs?
Well, thats a gimme on that one. I have raised my kids on experience from others...and would raise my dog on experience from others along with the doctors and veterinarians.

ORIGINAL: dyan

here is nothing better in the world then personal experience.  The doctors can tell you anything they want...many of them having no exerience with what they are talking about,,,only what was taught to them, and often what is preached to them by food and drug companies. 

I'm sorry I offended you about your idol, and I know you don't want to get into a conversation about veterinarians here, but you really did bring this upon yourself. I think its really funny that you think veterinarians don't have any experience. So let me think out loud here... A vet can see and treat 20+ animals a DAY, have 8-12 years of education, and uncounted hours of ongoing education, or they can breed dogs for 20 years and have more experience... Man, I really need to drop out of school right now and start breeding dogs!! The 120K in student loans sure isn't going to pay off, because well, that education isn't nearly as hands-on as the contact with real dogs that a breeder has, veterinarians never see real dogs, couldn't possibly know about the special needs of MY breed... nope, my neighbor across the street doesn't have a weimeraner, and we haven't discussed the pros and cons of the purdue study at length, and I don't know about the importance of gastro-pexy because well, I've never owned a great dane so I don't have enough personal experience...

And vets, well, we don't have dogs, we don't feed them different foods, we don't care about animals at all... all we care about is listening to drug food companies and selling their product for them...

RANT OVER... excuse my unprofessionalism...

ORIGINAL: dyan
What part of Lindas website don't you like?

Ya know, its nothing major, just little untruths that are annoying. Things like calling Malassezia a systemic infection, and talking about candida albicans in the same sentence as if they're in any way related diseases. Malassezia is SPECIES of yeast that infects the skin, and has nothing to do with gut flora. Candida (which she uses in the same sentence) is another SPECIES of yeast, and causes candidiasis, or thrush, which is a very uncommon disease in the US, but she makes it sound like its a common thing seen in all dogs and has to be managed by every dog owner, and her yeast removal kit is a joke. She says that puppy acne is a staph infection (it has little to nothing to do with bacteria), and in general sounding incredibly intelligent to those who don't have the veterinary education to know any better.

Her information on large breed foods is among the best I've seen, and she encourages owners to ask the questions and do procedures (like presurgical bloodwork and IV catheter) that most vets can't get owners to do. Obviously she pulls a lot of weight and does a lot of good. I don't dislike her, I just dislike people taking her word as gold.

RANT OVER... excuse my unprofessionalism...

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: dyan

here is nothing better in the world then personal experience.  The doctors can tell you anything they want...many of them having no exerience with what they are talking about,,,only what was taught to them, and often what is preached to them by food and drug companies. 

I'm sorry I offended you about your idol, and I know you don't want to get into a conversation about veterinarians here, but you really did bring this upon yourself. I think its really funny that you think veterinarians don't have any experience. So let me think out loud here... A vet can see and treat 20+ animals a DAY, have 8-12 years of education, and uncounted hours of ongoing education, or they can breed dogs for 20 years and have more experience... Man, I really need to drop out of school right now and start breeding dogs!! The 120K in student loans sure isn't going to pay off, because well, that education isn't nearly as hands-on as the contact with real dogs that a breeder has, veterinarians never see real dogs, couldn't possibly know about the special needs of MY breed... nope, my neighbor across the street doesn't have a weimeraner, and we haven't discussed the pros and cons of the purdue study at length, and I don't know about the importance of gastro-pexy because well, I've never owned a great dane so I don't have enough personal experience...

And vets, well, we don't have dogs, we don't feed them different foods, we don't care about animals at all... all we care about is listening to drug food companies and selling their product for them...

RANT OVER... excuse my unprofessionalism...

ORIGINAL: dyan
What part of Lindas website don't you like?

Ya know, its nothing major, just little untruths that are annoying. Things like calling Malassezia a systemic infection, and talking about candida albicans in the same sentence as if they're in any way related diseases. Malassezia is SPECIES of yeast that infects the skin, and has nothing to do with gut flora. Candida (which she uses in the same sentence) is another SPECIES of yeast, and causes candidiasis, or thrush, which is a very uncommon disease in the US, but she makes it sound like its a common thing seen in all dogs and has to be managed by every dog owner, and her yeast removal kit is a joke. She says that puppy acne is a staph infection (it has little to nothing to do with bacteria), and in general sounding incredibly intelligent to those who don't have the veterinary education to know any better.

Her information on large breed foods is among the best I've seen, and she encourages owners to ask the questions and do procedures (like presurgical bloodwork and IV catheter) that most vets can't get owners to do. Obviously she pulls a lot of weight and does a lot of good. I don't dislike her, I just dislike people taking her word as gold.

It's nice to know how important you feel your education is.  However, I've come to believe that years of school and letters after your name don't mean squat.   Myself included.  For any one "professional" opinion out there, you can find another the says the opposite is true and both have science to back it up.  While it's nice to know there's science behind these opinions, they are still just that - an opinion, and a breeder with decades of experience has just as valid an opinon as any vet or doctor.  

I'm sorry I offended you about your idol, and I know you don't want to get into a conversation about veterinarians here, but you really did bring this upon yourself. I think its really funny that you think veterinarians don't have any experience. So let me think out loud here... A vet can see and treat 20+ animals a DAY, have 8-12 years of education, and uncounted hours of ongoing education, or they can breed dogs for 20 years and have more experience... Man, I really need to drop out of school right now and start breeding dogs!! The 120K in student loans sure isn't going to pay off, because well, that education isn't nearly as hands-on as the contact with real dogs that a breeder has, veterinarians never see real dogs, couldn't possibly know about the special needs of MY breed... nope, my neighbor across the street doesn't have a weimeraner, and we haven't discussed the pros and cons of the purdue study at length, and I don't know about the importance of gastro-pexy because well, I've never owned a great dane so I don't have enough personal experience...

And vets, well, we don't have dogs, we don't feed them different foods, we don't care about animals at all... all we care about is listening to drug food companies and selling their product for them...

RANT OVER... excuse my unprofessionalism...

  I believe you owe Dyan an apology; IMO, your response was uncalled for. It's a shame this thread had to turn nasty; there was a very good discussion going on.[]

So you as an owner have a puppy with acne, and you read that the great dane lady says to try Nzymes and colostrum before treating with an antibiotic, but I call up my board certified dermatologist and find out that the current recommended treatment is prednisone because canine acne is an immune problem, not a bacterial infection...Whos right? The great dane lady, or the veterinarian?

Personally, I'll avoid the scarring that occurs while you treat with "snake oil" treatments until the puppies immune system matures and cures itself. I'll use the prednisone and have a cure in 2 weeks. But what do I know... I'm just a lowly vet student...

Moral of the story, don't believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet.

I'm sorry I offended you about your idol, and I know you don't want to get into a conversation about veterinarians here, but you really did bring this upon yourself. I think its really funny that you think veterinarians don't have any experience. So let me think out loud here... A vet can see and treat 20+ animals a DAY, have 8-12 years of education, and uncounted hours of ongoing education, or they can breed dogs for 20 years and have more experience... Man, I really need to drop out of school right now and start breeding dogs!!

Believe me, you didn't offend me about MY IDOL!  Actually you are amusing me, with your post. You kind of remind me of my two sons WHILE THEY WERE GROWING UP! 
I brought this upon myself?  What a riot!  I said that I don't wish to get into a conversation about veterinarians, doctor or drugs here, because it is a different subject all together.   I am not at all talking against veterinarians or doctors. In fact I work for a veterinarian...and have had several over the past few years. I take my dog to one as a matter of fact. You misconstrued the whole message I see with your rant.

And vets, well, we don't have dogs, we don't feed them different foods, we don't care about animals at all... all we care about is listening to drug food companies and selling their product for them...

Gee, sorry to hear that, mine does!

The 120K in student loans sure isn't going to pay off, because well, that education isn't nearly as hands-on as the contact with real dogs that a breeder has, veterinarians never see real dogs, couldn't possibly know about the special needs of MY breed... nope, my neighbor across the street doesn't have a weimeraner, and we haven't discussed the pros and cons of the purdue study at length, and I don't know about the importance of gastro-pexy because well, I've never owned a great dane so I don't have enough personal experience...

Your probably correct on your thought that your 120K in student loans won't pay off..      unless you change your attitude. You'll never make it out there if your attitude stays as it is now. Along with reading books, you need to have to be able to communicate with real people.
In the end, you can pick apart TGD website and any others that you feel you want to pick apart.  Its your business. 
 
Most of the things that I have read and investigated from her website, follow up with information also picked up in other links.

So you as an owner have a puppy with acne, and you read that the great dane lady says to try Nzymes and colostrum before treating with an antibiotic, but I call up my board certified dermatologist and find out that the current recommended treatment is prednisone because canine acne is an immune problem, not a bacterial infection...Whos right? The great dane lady, or the veterinarian?

Personally, I'll avoid the scarring that occurs while you treat with "snake oil" treatments until the puppies immune system matures and cures itself. I'll use the prednisone and have a cure in 2 weeks. But what do I know... I'm just a lowly vet student...

I MUST get in on this one.  Because having had a dog with puppy acne, and was put on steroids and antibiotics....several times...only to have it come back after being off of it for a couple of weeks.  We finally cured Ollie by saying NO MORE to the anitbiotics and prednisone that was given to him time after time. We finally decided we need to cure him,,not just stop it temporarily with the drugs.   We were afraid that if we really needed these drugs that they would not help anymore since Ollie had been on them so much.  That is when we went to changing foods, adding supplements and going to the skin specialist,,,and  you know,,,all that other "snake oil treatment!"

ORIGINAL: dyan

  I am not at all talking against veterinarians or doctors. In fact I work for a veterinarian...and have had several over the past few years. I take my dog to one as a matter of fact. You misconstrued the whole message I see with your rant.

I find it funny that you can work for a veterinarian and think so poorly of them, and doctors in general, but then, I misinterpreted what you meant, so I was completely out of line.

Apparently I misinterpreted your message when you said:

The doctors can tell you anything they want...many of them having no exerience with what they are talking about,,,only what was taught to them, and often what is preached to them by food and drug companies.

Was I wrong to think your opinion of doctors was that they have no experience worth mentioning?? Was I wrong to think you believe I am being educated purely by drug companies?

I was personally offended when I thought you said a doctor has no experience and don't know what they're talking about. I apologize for my incorrect response to a poorly interpreted message. I'm obviously a poor communicator as well, so I'll bow out gracefully and allow the thread to get back on topic...

Alinda, I am sure you are going to be a very good Vet someday. I am also sure you have had some very good education. But what you shouldn't do is disregard our experiences.You are chewing them up and spitting them out. You could learn a lot from us and we can help make you a sucessful vet. This forum is a great way for you to learn about people to because we are the ones that will pay your salary in the future. People skills is just as important in the Vet field as your book smarts.

Wow.

Look, if I have a problem that is not lifethreatening with my breed, then yes, I'll go to an expert in the breed. I will certainly be working with my vet, but from what I've seen something like canine acne is usually mild in presentation and treated with shampoos, if that. What would be the harm in also pursuing natural treatment to boost the immune system as well?

This is why I prefer older vets to youngsters - they have seen it all, have lost their self importance along the way somewhere (a career in animals will do that to you no matter what you do) and know when to shrug and say, "As long as it does no harm . . ." I love seeing the comments of "dvet" - 90% of the time he will preface by saying, "You know your dog best, but from what I've seen . . ."

I'm not a rabid fan of Great Dane Lady, having no real reason to use the bulk of her knowlege. But we have similiar experts in my own breeds. It was a Chinese crested expert who told me that Zhi's early skin problems were probably from contact with the lanolin in our sheep's wool -- that most cresties are highly sensitive to lanolin. Once I made sure I washed my hands between handling the sheep and her, the problems went away!

My vet's intial comment on her skin issues was, "Well, she is a crested and they have those problems." I don't blame her at all - I adore my vet - and one of the things I love about her is her ability to say, "Ah, you learn something new every day" if I relate something like the lanolin thing.

Like's Ben's chicken allergy - we struggled together with his horrible skin reactions and frequent stays in the hospital, then someone told me they'd had similiar problems after their dog got a different brand of rabies shot. I checked Ben's records and sure enough that was the brand and type he'd gotten that year. I took him off chicken and eggs, and his problems cleared up within a few weeks to the extent that my vet didn't even recognize him when I brought him in for a recheck. She was astonished, took all the material I gave her (including a peer reviewed study from Purdue), and resolved never to use that particular brand of rabies vaccination again.

It just so happened she had some vet friends in the clinic that were there to accompany her to a conference, and she brought THEM in too and told them what happened. There were four people there altogether plus my Dr and only one had ever heard of the rabies vac/chicken allergy connection. I didn't laugh maniacally and do the happy dance that I knew something they didn't. Vets are people too, and I realize the constant battle they face trying to balance keeping up with current research while still offering a sufficient amount of quality time with their patients.

There is no source of information that is intrinsically valid. What you learn in school is the discipline to gauge the validitiy of data for yourself, whether it's a peer-reviewed study or anecodotal information gleaned from years of working within a certain field. Experience you gain in the field subsequently adds to that ability.

Ron, for instance, on these Boards, is a master electrician with tons of practical experience under his belt. I don't believe he's ever been published in a peer-reviewed engineering journal, but if he tells me something we are getting ready to do is stupid and dangerous, I'll believe him readily. Honestly, if he disagrees with something published by a PhD who has no real-world experience, I'd tend to agree with him, especially if he can say something like, "Oh, yeah, we used to do that all the time but we've found it's much better and safer to do it this way."

Apparently I misinterpreted your message when you said:
[blockquote]quote:

The doctors can tell you anything they want...many of them having no exerience with what they are talking about,,,only what was taught to them, and often what is preached to them by food and drug companies.[/blockquote]


Was I wrong to think your opinion of doctors was that they have no experience worth mentioning?? Was I wrong to think you believe I am being educated purely by drug companies?

I was personally offended when I thought you said a doctor has no experience and don't know what they're talking about. I apologize for my incorrect response to a poorly interpreted message. I'm obviously a poor communicator as well, so I'll bow out gracefully and allow the thread to get back on topic...

I believe I said many  doctors and vets are going on what they read and what food companies and drug companies tell them.  I'm sorry that you took that as an insult because I didn't mean it as one.  How else does one learn?  I have seen more that one time my vet looking something up in a book. Is that wrong? NO, that is not wrong. 
My own vet has 5 dogs and several cats at least 6, so I am certainly not saying that all vets don't have experience in owning pets. And of course they see many a day.
Do I think you are educated by drug companies? No, not educated by them. But I believe the drug companies are educating the vets and doctors about drugs. Their drugs.  And that is the same with certain food companies for vets.  
I take my dog to the vet every year for an exam. I get her the necessary vaccines and HW treatment, and I am sure not agains doctors or vets. Sorry that you took it that way.  I am just saying that years of experience on certain things far out weighs what books say.
Allergies are one of the toughest convertsations. If the doctors were all 100% correct there wouldnt be any allergies. Many people are studying allergies, many are trying different medications and treatments...but read the dog forums (I'm sure its the same with human forums) obviously no one has really figured it out yet.

ORIGINAL: dyan


I believe I said many  doctors and vets are going on what they read and what food companies and drug companies tell them.  I'm sorry that you took that as an insult because I didn't mean it as one.  How else does one learn?  I have seen more that one time my vet looking something up in a book. Is that wrong? NO, that is not wrong. 
My own vet has 5 dogs and several cats at least 6, so I am certainly not saying that all vets don't have experience in owning pets. And of course they see many a day.
Do I think you are educated by drug companies? No, not educated by them. But I believe the drug companies are educating the vets and doctors about drugs. Their drugs.  And that is the same with certain food companies for vets.  
I take my dog to the vet every year for an exam. I get her the necessary vaccines and HW treatment, and I am sure not agains doctors or vets. Sorry that you took it that way.  I am just saying that years of experience on certain things far out weighs what books say.
Allergies are one of the toughest convertsations. If the doctors were all 100% correct there wouldnt be any allergies. Many people are studying allergies, many are trying different medications and treatments...but read the dog forums (I'm sure its the same with human forums) obviously no one has really figured it out yet.

Everything you said here was true. Yes, we do get a lot of "information" from drug companies, but people like the onest that frequent these forums are quick to point out where we get that information, and its a constant battle to prove you really did think before you picked that drug/food/treatment plan! Thats ok though, because it reminds us to think, which is never a bad thing.

And allergies are BY FAR the most frustrating thing I've ever had to deal with... only 6 more weeks before I can find out what my own dog is allergic to. But first I have to survive christmas without Romeo hoovering up any extra treats, and without my dad sneaking him anything under the table. I'd hate to start all over again, but knowing my family at christmas, its a very real possibility...

If you really, really want to prevent this (and I understand - I have a dog that a well-meant tidbit would put in the hospital) - put a basket muzzle on your dog. It's not that you don't trust your dog - something that dramatic will convince your relatives that you really mean it when you say, no treats! This will head off the "Oh, just one won't hurt" syndrome off at the pass.

It's harder to train the people than it is to train the dogs! I had a buyer of one of my dogs call me up recently, giggling. "I'm sending Jaff back for retraining," she said. "Uh, okay, what's the problem?" The person who was leasing him had called her saying he wanted another dog, because Jaff didn't respond to his "That is all, come here, stop now" command. I can't imagine what the problem could be - ALL my dogs are mind readers - which is what Jaff would need to be since that's not even close to his recall command!

Thanks for the props, Rebecca.
 
In my trade, the smart boss picks a job boss that has both the required license and the experience to handle the job.
 
It's not uncommon for many people to trust the word of an experienced person over a list of creds. Or, vice versa, respect creds, as those are often based on some kind of testing of hard knowledge. For example, when I go to an interview, I bring along the statement I received from the ICC of how I passed my master exam some years ago. I do this to show that I got it the hard way. I put in my time, I cracked the book (NEC) and took a skull busting test. Though, to be honest, when I took it, it was common sensical to me, though tedious. But I'm an average guy. Anyone can pass it if they pay attention. But having a license doesn't always equal practical experience. I knew a guy who passed his journeyman's exam first time, before he even had enough time to qualify but he didn't know some of the basic things of our trade, in day to day practice. And I've known guys that did it for 20 to 25 years without a journeyman's license and their work is excellent every time, the first time, and they may even have memorized sections of the NEC. The difference is who passed that one test.
 
When it comes to diagnosing a pet, 9 times out of 10, I'm going to go to the vet, even if I have received good advice, here. Example, a number of people here have had excellent experience feeding raw, nary a problem. I still won't do it, and my vet agrees with me. When Shadow was having sneezing fits on Innova and I put him back on Nutro and the sneezing fits went away, I left it at that. I could have gone to the vet and he might have said, put him back on the food before, if he wasn't having a problem with that. Nor am I hell-bent on having Shadow eat what "I think he ought to eat." Feeding him is about him, not me. So, I wouldn't feel like putting him on a food that I might think is great and then put him through allergy tests and remedies, etc, at added expense, as well, to see why he's having these symptoms when he didn't have them on the original food.
 
As for whether or not some of us here have the medical expertise to diagnose a dog, it wouldn't matter if we did. The dog should still go to the vet, if the situation warrants it.
 
Scenario, I keep feeding Innova because it looks really good and everyone else recommends it and I want to the best for Shadow. He gets sneezing fits, 12 to 15 in a row, several times a day. I go to the vet to see about allergy test. Vet says, well lets review the history. What has changed in his environment? Food. Well, try him on the old food and see if the symptoms persist. If that doesn't work, then we'll test him.
 
Reality, I avoided the vet trip, switched back to his previous food, the symptom went away. So, I used some common sense on my part, as opposed to seeking a professional opinion. I'm not the only one here to do that. And I would think, rather than get caught up in technical definitions that would be beyond most people's experience here, we should just concentrate on whether a situation warrants a vet visit, or not.
 
As for technical explanations, don't make me whip the the explanation, math included (both spherical trigonometry and Pythagora's Theorem) as to why you have to use the square root of 3 in a 3-phase power calculation. I will make your eyes glass over.[]

ORIGINAL: ron2

As for technical explanations, don't make me whip the the explanation, math included (both spherical trigonometry and Pythagora's Theorem) as to why you have to use the square root of 3 in a 3-phase power calculation. I will make your eyes glass over.[]

And thats why we have experts in every field... I don't even want to know what spherical trigonometry is...