Dog Community

Diet for sensitive stomach?

Posted : 12/12/2006 11:59:30 PM

Sigh. I think Ogre may actually have the most sensitive stomach of any dog ever to exist. [8|]

I got him in mid October and I still haven't figured out the best diet for him. When I got him, he was being fed Ol' Roy at the shelter, but he was picked up as a stray and I don't know what he had been eating prior to that. He was slightly overweight, his coat was dry and gross, his back teeth were already getting a little tartar buildup, his breath was awful, and his poops were MASSIVE. *But,* he didn't seem to have the constant upset stomach that he has now. On a different diet, his coat has gotten longer and shinier, he's lost a little weight and gained muscle mass, the plaque is gone from his teeth, and he has no more doggy smell. But he has constant diarrhea. To the point where he's pooping 3-5 times a day...a completely liquid, awful smelling mess. He's house trained, but sometimes on a particularly bad day he really can't hold it and I end up cleaning up rivers of Ogre poop usually once or twice every other day. He also vomits about once a day...usually a real quick, nonchalant spit up...kind of like the way a human infant pukes.

He seems to feel fine. Like I said, almost all of his physical aspects have improved. He has loads of energy, and seems to look and feel great. He just has the squirts constantly.

I know this is most likely caused by too much variety in his diet. He gets three meals a day. For breakfast he gets cottage cheese, yogurt, a little meat roll dog food (Pet Botanics Lamb and Rice) a sardine, a little sweet potato baby food, and a probiotic dog biscuit. For lunch he gets a home cooked meal- oatmeal or rice cooked with a little boiled ground beef, carrots, and green beans, and a handful or two of Blue Buffalo kibble mixed in. For dinner, he gets raw. The only supplement he gets is Missing Link Joint Support...which contains (from a website) [font=verdana][size=2]FLAX SEED, GLUCOSAMINE, BLACKSTRAP MOLASSES, FREEZE DRIED LIVER, RICE BRAN, PRIMARY DRIED YEAST, SUNFLOWER SEED, DEHYDRATED ALFALFA, DRIED CARROT, FREEZE DRIED BONE, DRIED FISH MEAL, FREEZE DRIED OYSTER, SPROUTED GREEN BARLEY, DRIED KELP, LECITHIN, GARLIC AND YUCCA SCHIDIGERA EXTRACT.
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So, I realize this is probably just too much variety for him. My other two dogs have similar diets (the only difference is that Axl gets kibble instead of raw, and no chicken because of a chicken allergy) and they do fine with it. They pretty much have stomachs of steel and can eat almost anything.

When I restrict his diet just to kibble, he does fine. No more squirts, no more puking. He also starts to look crappy again...his coat goes, he gets some tartar back on his teeth, he starts to have some skin trouble, etc. So it's like I have to choose between a dog that looks and feels good but has chronic diarrhea, or a dog that looks and feels crappy but has firm poops. Right now I'm choosing the first one, but I'm getting a little tired of cleaning up poo rivers in my hallway. Crying

To be fair, the only kibbles I've tried him on are Blue Buffalo and Canidae...so there could be some out there that he'll do well on. But he just looks and feels so great with his current primarily raw/homecooked diet that I hate to change it.

So what do you guys think the best thing to do is here? Should I bite the bullet, take him off of his current diet, and just find a kibble that he does okay on? Or should I stick with this diet that he looks really great on, and try to find some other way to fix it? Does anyone have any suggestions for things I can add to his diet to firm up his stools? Maybe add some pumpkin and/or rice to his food?

I feel like I'm going in circles here...I put him on a raw/homecooked diet and he looks great but has horrible diarrhea, so I take him off of that and put him on kibble...and his stools get better, but he looks and feels worse. Any advice is definitely appreciated.

willowchow

Posted : 12/13/2006 1:35:16 AM

He is getting a lot of variety but the first thing I'd do is lessen his portions down and see if he's just over eating and that is causing the stool issue.

corvus

Posted : 12/13/2006 2:13:30 AM

It could be something in particular that's disagreeing with him. Perhaps you could try taking aspects of his diet out one at a time to see if you can work out what's causing it. I'd guess that the dairy or the raw is probably the most likely culprit. Failing that, maybe get him checked out at the vets. He's wormed and all that?

Luvntzus

Posted : 12/13/2006 2:14:33 AM

The absolute first thing I'd do is stop feeding him yogurt and cottage cheese. He could be lactose intolerant and that could very well be what's causing the diarrhea and stomach upset.

I would also feed him twice a day instead of three times a day so that his system can have time to rest.

That's where I'd start and see how things change before then removing raw and again see what happens If that didn't help, from there I would also remove the missing link and lastly the homecooked or at the very least just add cooked meat instead of all the veggies and stuff.

brookcove

Posted : 12/13/2006 8:12:50 AM

Cut him back to just kibble, and then start adding what you want him to eat, ONE item at a time. Give him a week on that food, then go on to another. That way you can both figure out what it causing the problem, and also what is making the difference for him as far as health. IT seems pretty obvious that he's not getting everything he needs from the kibble and something you are giving him is making up for that - but because you are sort of taking the kitchen sink approach, there's no way to tell unless you backtrack and offer these things in a way that you can gauge their effect on him as you add them.

Variety itself doesn't cause stomach upset, it's switching back and forth that does it, if the dog is not used to constant switching around like mine are. They have specialized organisms that help them digest, that they have to build up when something radically different is introduced.

Therefore, if you have been feeding the same variety of foods for several weeks, and he's still upset, he's either reacting to a particular food (lots of trouble foods in there - dairy, flax, yeast, the dog biscuit), unable to accept raw food (this is possible), or there is some problem in the way you are feeding, like overfeeding or offering different foods too fast before giving him chance to adjust.

You know, I looked over what you are feeding again and that just seems like an awful lot of food. Axl is what, about 60 pounds?. The rule of thumb for a meat-based diet is 2 to 4% of body weight plus no more than say !/4 cup of "other" stuff". I see a lot of really calorie-dense "other" stuff like dairy products, oatmeal, sweet potatoes, an commercial dog foods. What protocolol are you following on this diet?

jessies_mom

Posted : 12/13/2006 8:34:20 AM

I agree with brookcove; her advice on this is excellent. It's possible the cottage cheese could be causing the problem; many dogs cannot tolerate diary products. I know you're trying your best to feed him a good diet but honestly it doesn't sound like a balanced diet to me; he needs to get most of his nutrition from a good quality kibble unless you've carefully researched home prepared diets for dogs. There's an article in this newsletter about why feeding a variety of foods doesn't insure your dog will get the nutrients he needs in the right balance; [linkhttp://www.monicasegal.com/newsletters/2006-01NL.php]http://www.monicasegal.com/newsletters/2006-01NL.php[/link]; it's about raw diets but the principle applies to homecooked as well. Another thought about the diarrhea; not all dogs do well on raw; if their immune system isn't strong the bacteria can cause problems like dairrhea. You may want to stop feeding him raw for a while and reintroduce it later.

Ratsicles

Posted : 12/13/2006 9:19:27 AM

Thanks everyone. I'll do what brookecove suggested and cut him back just to kibble and the other ingredients slowly.

The reason he's on such a weird diet is because it's the only thing my other two dogs do well on. My chi has to have a raw based diet or he won't eat enough, and it's always put him in the best condition. My bulldog can't handle raw, but kibble didn't put him in perfect condition either. When I started researching homecooked diets and that kind of thing, adding things to their diet and varying it, they both got better. It works for them. I know it's a really strange sounding diet, but out of everything I've tried for them over the years it's what they've done best on.

But obviously it isn't the best diet for Ogre. One of the things I discovered that made him worse was raw egg, so he doesn't get that anymore. Now I strongly suspect it's the raw...since he's alot worse during the night/morning...in the hours after he has a raw meal. Either way, I'm going to eliminate the dairy entirely, and the other things I'll just add back slowly, one at a time, to see what's causing the problems and what's making him better.

I know it isn't switching food around that's the problem...because no matter how long I leave him on a varied diet the symptoms never go away. It's only when I take all of that away that the diarrhea stops, so I know it has to be one of the things I'm giving him.

As for the amount- I know that it sounds like alot, but he gets *very* tiny amounts. His breakfast adds up to less than a cup of food, as does his lunch. The bulk of his diet is definitely raw. When I got him he was 96 pounds, which was about 10 pounds heavy for his height and age. (Not just going off of an akita weight chart...I know that the best weight for an individual can vary, but he really did have a teeny bit of chub.) And I've gotten him down to 88 so far. He actually has a waist now, so he's better as far as weight goes. Because he's a teenager (10 months) who is still growing and is pretty active he's getting 3% of his body weight a day. So he gets about 2 and a half pounds of food a day total, generally. The bulk of that consists of raw, the rest is just a teaspoon or tablespoon of each. He gets three meals a day instead of two because of he goes more than 6 or 7 hours without food he vomits bile. He also gets really hungry and inhales his food, and I don't want him eating that fast because akitas are prone to bloat. I pretty much have to break up his food into small portions throughout the day so he doesn't start vomiting bile though.

Either way, you're all right that this is not the best thing for him. It works great for my other two dogs, but he really can't handle it...so like I said, I'll cut him back to kibble for now and slowly add things and see where that takes us.

shamrockmommy

Posted : 12/13/2006 9:27:08 AM

I think if I were in this situation (I have been recently actually) I would back off to just kibble. I'd pick a very simple one, like California Natural and leave him on it for several weeks until his tummy has time to settle. My minpin is on this and has nice shiny coat.

I agree with what everyone else has said also.
And me? I would pick firm poop/crappy coat over nice coat diarrhea any day. Diarrhea is so uncomfortable for them (well and us too!). And any dairy is going to make an already irritated gi tract worse.
Good luck.

Pam

Posted : 12/13/2006 9:44:02 AM

When you feed raw are you adding the calcium? He will get the runs if you dont.

My raw feed boy can't tolerate raw eggs -runs. Cooked egg is questionable too. He only gets Nature Variety pre-made raw. I've noticed that he needs the bone to firm his stools. When I give raw burger and add teh calcium, it is not the same result as NV. He doesn't understand RMBs or rec.bones. I never ever give him dairy or greasy cooked meats. ANd he has a gorgeous coat. I do give him a fish oil cap daily but limit the other supplements. His stomach can't handle much.

I'd definitely knock out the carrots and green beens those soften stools.

Scout in Canada

Posted : 12/13/2006 10:23:00 AM

I would start with a kibble-only diet that is made for allergy prone dogs. When Scout's skin was really itchy and bumpy on Nutro, I switched her to California Natural. Everything cleared up. Her skin and coat look great. Only downside is that she's not really crazy about the kibble, it's kind of bland - but some dogs love it. You could also consider Natural Balance, duck and potato perhaps.

Once he settles down with the kibble, add just one raw element. Maybe a fish related item to help with his coat. If his poop goes haywire from that (remember to give it several weeks before you get a fair evaluation), take it out and try something else.... then maybe add a raw bone for his teeth. One item at a time only and give him lots of time to adjust.

Hopefully that's helpful.... I was so happy with the Cali Nat performance with Scout's skin and coat.

jessies_mom

Posted : 12/13/2006 11:41:45 AM

IT seems pretty obvious that he's not getting everything he needs from the kibble and something you are giving him is making up for that -

He was eating Ol' Roy before so that would explain the dry coat and large poops; with the diet he's on now, he doesn't get enough kibble to tell if it provides enough nutrients since he only gets a handful of Blue Buffalo a day. A good quality kibble like Blue Buffalo would probably provide what he needs if fed in adequate amounts.

willowchow

Posted : 12/13/2006 12:06:41 PM

I also remembered that when I used Missing Link I had to start off with a small amount and build up to the required amount. I believe that even the package says to do that because it contains a high amount of fiber. So, that could be something you could try too.

Ratsicles

Posted : 12/13/2006 12:18:24 PM

He was eating Ol' Roy before so that would explain the dry coat and large poops; with the diet he's on now, he doesn't get enough kibble to tell if it provides enough nutrients since he only gets a handful of Blue Buffalo a day. A good quality kibble like Blue Buffalo would probably provide what he needs if fed in adequate amounts.

But the thing is, I *have* given him a purely kibble diet and given him time to adjust to it. It solves his digestion problems, but his activity levels go away, he starts to get some buildup on his teeth, his coat gets bad, he might get a hot spot or two, and his coat gets flaky overall. That's why I end up taking him off the kibble entirely. Now, like I said before, I have only tried him on two brands- Canidae and Blue Buffalo, so there may be kibbles out there that he would do well on. But I *have* given him time to adjust to a kibble only diet in the past and I'm never pleased with the results.

When you feed raw are you adding the calcium? He will get the runs if you dont.

Er...is a calcium supplement really necessary if he's getting a sufficient amount of bone in his diet?

Ratsicles

Posted : 12/13/2006 12:20:42 PM

Willowchow, maybe the Missing Link has something to do with it then. I may not have taken enough time to adjust him to getting the full amount. When I get ready to add it back to his diet, I'll be sure to take things extra slow.

willowchow

Posted : 12/13/2006 12:22:14 PM

I think you've got it right--if your feeding bone a calcium supplement is not required.

I hate to keep suggesting Natural Balance like it's the greatest for all. But, the two things you've mentioned that are of concern, the digestive upset and the coat condition---Willow has IBS and can eat the Sweet Potato/Fish with no trouble and her coat looks great on it. I've also been adding in Alaskan Salmon oil--it comes in a pump--both are at Petco.

And, she's also very fussy and will eat this kibble so it might be worth a try for you.