Well, mid grade for me I think...

I would have thought that but she has had this exact same reaction before to food.The people who brought her to me sent me pics of her when they first got her.She was having the same problem then and they had tried alot of different foods to help her.They are the people who discovered that she could eat the CS and she cleared up on that.The only difference between her reaction this time and before is that it was Much worse and had developed into staph infections.My other allergy dog Ty reacts in exactly the same way.He always has for the 8 years i have had him.I had a post about him a few weeks ago.Below is the picture of the day he "broke out" and then tonight.Switching to the natural balance cleared him up (besides the hair needing to re-grow)

What you can control is the selection of foods that you will try.

 
 
EXACTLY, and it's everyones choice what we choose to feed. If a food is working, why change it.
While I feed super-premiums, I just don't feel it's quite fair to harp on some one because they chose to feed the food they do.
If I feed Eagle Pack, someone is bound to have something negative to say about it and like wise, if I feed Innova, there are going to be some that comment against it. So, it's really redundant to continue to make these same comments over and over again.
BTW, I feed EP and Innova EVO, raw, homecooked and canned. I'm sure there is going to be something negative to say about how I choose to feed.

Myniceprincess have you tried immune boosting supplements,or sought advice from a holistic vet? Homecooked or raw elimination diet?

ORIGINAL: tia2

I have wanted to and will give Sensible choice a shot before I resolve to chicken soup with added omegas.

Good luck with it [] Hope it works out as well for you as it did for us.

ORIGINAL: Edie

Myniceprincess have you tried immune boosting supplements,or sought advice from a holistic vet? Homecooked or raw elimination diet?

 
Both of these dogs are seniors with other health problems so i am hesitant to give them raw.I do feed raw to the younger,healthy dogs but these 2 get cooked.I do homecook but Emmie has been here less than a month so we dont know for sure what all her issues are yet.Ty has done great on homecooked and certain dog foods in the past but every so often he will have a flare up or develop a new sensitivity to something and we have to start over at square one.

Off topic--Kelly, that picture is sooo cute!!  []

  It is losing the hair on the back of her legs that makes me think it's mange; the fact that both your dogs have similar skin problems also makes it more likely to be something besides the food but you know your dogs best; I hope she clears up soon.

then it doesn't make any sense to say they can't tolerate premium foods as a whole. And since you say you've only tried Innova, that's really saying nothing about the many, many other brands of premium foods out there.

 
I think you read more into my statement than I meant. But, for what it's worth, there are a few people who have tried all the varieties of remiums to no avail. Let me ask you this. Eagle Pack gets a better rep around here than Nutro. Why is that? The foods are quite similar, though maybe not exactly the same. Or, exactly what makes Nutro Lamb and Rice (what I feed) so bad. No points for saying grain. With Rice in the name, I expect a grain. The only difference I can see is a disagreement over the use of grain and an ingredient list difference. But I could tell you all day that Shadow is fine on it and you siimply wouldn't believe me because it's not Canidae, or cancer-curing Solid Gold with the aflatoxin thrown in for free, or some of the other holistics that have apples and carrots and pieces of plastic and metal.
 
So the difference here is simply an opinion, rather than scientific observation and actual results. Otherwise, people here would believe Sandra, who always gets bloodwork done and has healthy dogs feeding a food I choose not to feed.
 
As I said in a previous reply to the OP, my opinion is seen as not worthy, since I only tried Innova and it didn't work, even though it has been lauded as the best of the best, bar none, etc., ad infinitum, and that I didn't go through a bunch of other foods that are somewhat similar, just like Nutro Ultra is holistic, with a comparable recipe to others. If you actually look at the ingredients of what I feed, there is one meat meal source, one grain, supps as needed, and that's it. It's extremely simple. Aside from the rice, which his breed ate in history, it's meat. Wouldn't that actually make it better than all the holistics with a more omnivorous blend of an assortment of vegetables, most of which he doesn't really care to eat, even fresh?
 

WOW! I want whatever your smoking. I do believe I've heard it all now.

 
Uncalled for.
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

then it doesn't make any sense to say they can't tolerate premium foods as a whole. And since you say you've only tried Innova, that's really saying nothing about the many, many other brands of premium foods out there.

I think you read more into my statement than I meant. But, for what it's worth, there are a few people who have tried all the varieties of remiums to no avail. Let me ask you this. Eagle Pack gets a better rep around here than Nutro. Why is that? The foods are quite similar, though maybe not exactly the same. Or, exactly what makes Nutro Lamb and Rice (what I feed) so bad. No points for saying grain. With Rice in the name, I expect a grain. The only difference I can see is a disagreement over the use of grain and an ingredient list difference. But I could tell you all day that Shadow is fine on it and you siimply wouldn't believe me because it's not Canidae, or cancer-curing Solid Gold with the aflatoxin thrown in for free, or some of the other holistics that have apples and carrots and pieces of plastic and metal.

So the difference here is simply an opinion, rather than scientific observation and actual results. Otherwise, people here would believe Sandra, who always gets bloodwork done and has healthy dogs feeding a food I choose not to feed.

As I said in a previous reply to the OP, my opinion is seen as not worthy, since I only tried Innova and it didn't work, even though it has been lauded as the best of the best, bar none, etc., ad infinitum, and that I didn't go through a bunch of other foods that are somewhat similar, just like Nutro Ultra is holistic, with a comparable recipe to others. If you actually look at the ingredients of what I feed, there is one meat meal source, one grain, supps as needed, and that's it. It's extremely simple. Aside from the rice, which his breed ate in history, it's meat. Wouldn't that actually make it better than all the holistics with a more omnivorous blend of an assortment of vegetables, most of which he doesn't really care to eat, even fresh?

 
I understand what you are saying, Ron.  I am not doubting that Shadow is doing fine on Nutro. In fact, Nutro is currently in the rotation of what I feed my cats.  It just seems that lately there are people who are just waiting for someone to post something negative about a premium food so they can pounce all over the opportunity with a "see, I told you so!" post which is doing nothing to address the original poster's situation.

ORIGINAL: ron2

Let me ask you this. Eagle Pack gets a better rep around here than Nutro. Why is that? The foods are quite similar, though maybe not exactly the same. Or, exactly what makes Nutro Lamb and Rice (what I feed) so bad. No points for saying grain. With Rice in the name, I expect a grain. The only difference I can see is a disagreement over the use of grain and an ingredient list difference. But I could tell you all day that Shadow is fine on it and you siimply wouldn't believe me because it's not Canidae, or cancer-curing Solid Gold with the aflatoxin thrown in for free, or some of the other holistics that have apples and carrots and pieces of plastic and metal.

So the difference here is simply an opinion, rather than scientific observation and actual results. Otherwise, people here would believe Sandra, who always gets bloodwork done and has healthy dogs feeding a food I choose not to feed.

As I said in a previous reply to the OP, my opinion is seen as not worthy, since I only tried Innova and it didn't work, even though it has been lauded as the best of the best, bar none, etc., ad infinitum, and that I didn't go through a bunch of other foods that are somewhat similar, just like Nutro Ultra is holistic, with a comparable recipe to others. If you actually look at the ingredients of what I feed, there is one meat meal source, one grain, supps as needed, and that's it. It's extremely simple. Aside from the rice, which his breed ate in history, it's meat. Wouldn't that actually make it better than all the holistics with a more omnivorous blend of an assortment of vegetables, most of which he doesn't really care to eat, even fresh?

Well, since you asked, here is why I think Eagle Pack Holistic is better than Nutro Natural Choice. [] You're right, what I'm going by is my opinion of the ingredients and also experiences that I've seen/heard of others feeding their dogs Nutro. First the experiences- on another board there's a member who raved about Nutro NC, said her dogs had the shiniest coats, etc. Then, after she switched to the Ultra version she went on and on about how their coats were even shinier. I've heard other similar accounts of people who have dogs with a shiny coat, but after switching to another brand their dogs are even shinier.

Same thing happened with my best friend's redbone coonhound. She was feeding him Nutro Natural Choice and thought he was doing just fine. I convinced her to switch to Chicken Soup and since then his coat is much softer, shinier, he sheds less, just looks better etc. Since she didn't have anything to compare to at first, she thought he was doing great on Nutro NC.

Basically, I truly believe that a dog that is doing well on Nutro NC will do better on a higher quality food. And that isn't to say that just because Shadow didn't do well on Innova that he can only handle "mid grade" foods. Gingerbread has eaten lots of the holistic type foods with fruits/vegetables and done well. Innova is the ONLY one that he couldn't handle and got loose, mucousy stool on.

So for the ingredient lists:

Nutro Natural Choice chicken meal, rice, and oatmeal

Chicken Meal, Rice Flour, Ground Rice, Rice Bran, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Oatmeal, Soybean Oil, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Natural Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Potassium Chloride, Dried Egg Product, Dried Kelp (source of Iodine), Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Biotin, Niacin, Garlic Flavor, Manganese Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Vitamin A Supplement, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Chondroitin Sulfate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid.

Eagle Pack duck meal & oatmeal

Duck Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Ground White Rice, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (Preserved With Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Tomato Pomace, Carrots, Peas, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Quinoa (Organic), Inulin, Apples, Blueberries, Cranberries, Beta-Carotene, Dehydrated Kelp, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Polysaccharide Complexes Of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. subtilus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus coagulins, Aspergillus oryzae, and Aspergillus niger.

I don't think it's an issue of one having more grains than the other, I think it's the quality of the grains and the ingredients that aren't in Nutro. Natural choice uses highly refined grains like flour and bran with less nutritional value. And since dogs are omnivores, it only stands to reason that they would benefit from healthy ingredients like apples, blueberries, cranberries, carrots, peas, tomato pomace, and alfalfa like in Eagle Pack.

Another difference is that, unlike Natural Choice, Eagle Pack has probiotics and they're added after the cooking process at guaranteed levels. The company also has its own plant and as far as I know, a very good safety record- no aflatoxin, metal pieces, etc. So, all around, yes I'd say it's a much better food than Nutro Natural Choice. I have not yet seen a dog that did well on Natural Choice that didn't do better on a different food. []

It just seems that lately there are people who are just waiting for someone to post something negative about a premium food so they can pounce all over the opportunity with a "see, I told you so!" post

 
That may or may not be and thank you for answering honestly.
 

I have noticed that in the nutrition forum, talking about "raw" is like talking about religion, talking about premium food vs. grocery store brand food is like talking about republicans vs. democrats.
We cannot seem to have ONE thread where we're NOT annoying the crap out of eachother with insults.
I wish some of those who are so gung-ho on feeding premium foods would just feed their dogs that and shut up.
It's one thing to share an opinion, it's something completely different to be belittling about it.

Ingredients

Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Rice Gluten, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Potassium Chloride, Dried Egg Product, Dried Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Chondroitin Sulfate, Niacin, Calcium Iodate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Garlic, Vitamin A Supplement, Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

Nutro supports the safe, ethical and humane treatment of all animals, including those used by our suppliers who provide our ingredients.

 

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude Protein (minimum) 24.00%
Crude Fat (minimum) 13.00%
Crude Fiber (maximum) 4.00%
Moisture (maximum) 10.00%
Linoleic Acid (minimum) 3.50%
Calcium (minimum) 1.00%
Calcium (maximum) 1.50%
Phosphorus (minimum) 0.60%
Phosphorus (maximum) 1.30%
Zinc (minimum) 240 mg/kg
Vitamin E (minimum) 200 IU/kg
Ascorbic Acid (minimum)* 35 mg/kg
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) (minimum)* 0.01%
Glucosamine Hydrochloride (minimum)* 625 mg/kg
Chondroitin Sulfate (minimum)* 500 mg/kg
 
The above is the large breed adult lamb and rice, which is what I feed.
 
And I do appreciate your viewpoint and what you have seen so far and I, too, would be the first to say that if a dog is doing well on a food, regardless of what it is, they should be changed to another food. I also agree with Jenn S that people shouldn't be quick to jump on a food that turns out wrong. But, I think, we're using premium to simply differentiate ingredient lists. That premium or holistic includes more varied vegetables, therefore more ingredients, as opposed to mid-grade, which may only use on meat source and a grain. I do think dogs are omnivores.
 
Back in the good old days, if someone didn't have dog food from a company and the meat leftovers were gone, the dogs got corn mush with bacon fat. And no one thought to give them a geritol or one-a-day vit. complex. I wouldn't necessarily call that an optimum diet. It certainly wasn't scientific.
 
OTOH, I think it's okay for someone to say that they've had a bad experience with a food, regardless of whether it's premium or mid-grade. If you happen to notice, whenever someone says they knew of a dog that did lousy on Nutro, I keep my mouth shut. Why? Because dogs have done lousy on several premiums, lousy on Science Diet, lousy on Purina, etc. It just happens.
 

ORIGINAL: ron2




Ingredients

Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Rice Gluten, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Potassium Chloride, Dried Egg Product, Dried Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Chondroitin Sulfate, Niacin, Calcium Iodate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Garlic, Vitamin A Supplement, Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

...And I do appreciate your viewpoint and what you have seen so far and I, too, would be the first to say that if a dog is doing well on a food, regardless of what it is, they should be changed to another food. I also agree with Jenn S that people shouldn't be quick to jump on a food that turns out wrong. But, I think, we're using premium to simply differentiate ingredient lists. That premium or holistic includes more varied vegetables, therefore more ingredients, as opposed to mid-grade, which may only use on meat source and a grain. I do think dogs are omnivores...

Yup, like I said it's not that it has grains it's that they're rice flour, bran, and gluten. That and there's not a fruit or vegetable in sight, [] which I think is very healthy for dogs (as long as the food is still meat based), and the fact that there are no probiotics. Since you've had good luck with Natural Choice, have you ever thought about trying the Ultra?