Objective measures of food

Or even worse, upset their immune system and bring on one of the autoimmune disease that can be so davastating.

Isnt that being a little overdramatic? I have yet to hear of a dog develop some kind of devastating autoimune disease from eating a food that didnt suit him.If this were to happen than i would say that the immune system was not up to scratch to begin with.

I could jump off into something else and totally screw up my dogs digest system,

Or more likely it could have the opposite affect [] I know their digestive system would have a lot less work to do to process/digest/extract nutrients of the more appropriate ingredients,and this IMO would have a run on affect to the other organs,eg liver/kidney's etc. .Although i would say it would take your dogs digestive system a little while to get used to  switching from purina to a food with healthier ingredients,thats to be expected IMO. That would be like a kid eating nothing but canned baby food and then was suddenly switched on to a more wholesome diet,their system would go into a kind of shock,i guess.

The more natural and digestable the ingredients,the easier it is for them to digest and for the bodies to use.I think their bodies would have to work alot harder to extract the 'nutrients' from Turkey , brewers rice, poultry by-product meal , corn gluten meal, corn bran, whole grain corn, whole grain wheat, oat meal, non-fat yogurt, animal fat , animal digest, than it would turkey,chicken,turkey meal,chicken meal,potatoes,herring meal,chicken fat,egg,garlic,apples.

Isnt that being a little overdramatic? I have yet to hear of a dog develop some kind of devastating autoimune disease from eating a food that didnt suit him.If this were to happen than i would say that the immune system was not up to scratch to begin with.

gee, I didn't realize you were a vet and seen thousands of dogs and know all about the immune system and what can upset it.   It so happens that if a dog goes around puking up his/her food or having totally runny poops for several days, it most certainly can upset the immune system.  Even stress can upset the immune system.  I guess your vet school taught you more than LSU vet school taught my vet because he was the first to tell me foods can be at the root of autoimmune disease, and then I have learned the same from forums on autoimmune disease--I happen to have one myself, rheumatoid arthritis and i am sure the fresh grown corn i ate as a child did not cause it.  And I never did eat Purina.
 
EDITED   And i am sure if my dogs had any kind of autoimmune disease or immune system out of whack, it would have shown up by now.Especially in the one who has been on purina for 11 1/2 yers.  I don't think they have one iota of trouble digesting their food as they do nice size poops (they all go twice a day), have never had anal gland problem--as a matter of fact I had never even heard of it til i came to this forum as none of our dogs has ever had a problem with anal glands.

Excuse me folks, but could we please try to stay ON topic?  This isn't really the thread to attack Sandra's feeding choices.
 
The Whole Dog Journal does recommend rotating foods for this reason.....  Food A might be just a tiny bit shy of say zinc.  No biggie if the foods are being rotated, but if that is the ONLY food the dog ever eats, that tiny bit shy of zinc could add up and cause a mineral deficiancy, same would be true if it were a tiny bit heavy on one mineral or another.  That said, until recently I didn't rotate kibble, but I did rotate their homecooked.  Now I've found a second food that works well for them so I do rotate between Innova and Canidae and still rotate their home cooked as well.
 
As to the original question......on my vets recommendation, I fed my two pups Purina large breed puppy.  And I, like most, at the time didn't see anything hugely out of whack.  It did look like I was running horses in my backyard given the size of the piles from two german shepherd pups......then I found idog and started learning about nutrition.....on Royal Canin, which was the best I could find the poop size decreased (and I do not consider RC top of the line).  There was nothing that I could clearly note as caused by the food, or something that would improve by finding a better food.......
 
However, when I did find Innova these are the changes I noted....and it might not be just the Innova because I do feed homecooked or raw for one meal and kibble for the other.....
 
NO doggie smell......they are dogs, right?  they are supposed to have a doggie smell?  Even my little cockers smelled like dogs and needed frequent baths.....With the higher quality foods, NO doggie smell at all, and I've got six german shepherds now, who live IN the house.  But if someone were to come to my door, they would not SMELL that I have dogs, and I think most would be shocked at the number and size because there just flat out is no doggie smell.  And, one or two baths a year is it for these guys.
 
Sparkling clean teeth.....but again, this might be because of the raw bones and raw feeding.
 
Excellent muscle tone and not an ounce of fat on any of them.
 
Beautiful, healthy coats.  Minimal shedding except during blowing season.
 
Not the first flea in over two years.
 
Smallish (for german shepherds) and very solid poop.  And that does matter when you have this many dogs.
 
Great energy, but not hyper.
 
Again, I can't say that it's kibble A or kibble B ALONE that caused these changes....I suspect that it's a combination of BOTH the kibble and the homecooked.
 
OT....but what happened to Cinnabun?  I don't see his picture anymore?

I saw some extremely surprising and dramatic changes when Penny went from a mid-range kibble to homecooked.

The week we changed, her energy levels picked up so much that all my 3 housemates commented at some point that Penny was acting 'weird' because she was bouncing around like a puppy when for months she'd been plodding around like an old dog.

She also lost weight in the next few weeks. She was not especially overweight, but she slimmed down to a fantastic shape that everyone was commenting on.

Her arthritic aches and pains became a thing of the past. They just stopped and never came back.

Her stomach problems, which were the reason we switched, also vanished never to be seen again.

It really seemed like I'd turned back the clock on Penny. She went from looking and acting very old to looking and acting like a dog in her prime. She now keeps up with our 2 year old kelpie cross with no troubles at all and she's nothing bat hard muscle underneath her coat.

We changed my Mum's dogs, Pyry and Jill onto homecooked/raw recently.

Within a couple of weeks, Pyry's energy levels were higher, his coat had gone from dull, grimy and with flakey skin to shiny and healthy, and he lost a little weight as well. Jill's energy levels stayed the same. She had been doing all right on the kibble, but on the homecooked/raw, her coat glossed up very nicely and she looks to have a little more muscle on her, but she hasn't gained weight.

Uh maybe Sandra's vet recommended Senior ONE rather than Senior Dog Chow because he as least knows that a meat first diet is preferrable to a corn first diet.  That isn't too hard to grasp is it?  No one should stay on Fit and Trim-its a vet recommended quick weight loss plan that works very well but is not or should not be used long term.  When the weight comes off you switch back and hopefully maintain that weight loss with a better food fed in small quantity and more exercise.  Believe it or not Sandra moving from the Chow line to the ONE line is a big step and a great step for her dogs.  Why is that blasted on any thread possible.  Let it rest already.  This is also the first time I have heard that Pro Plan is known for large poops!  I don't have that with my dog.  Nor have my regular customers reported that.  But poop is a great indicator of how your dog is digesting his food and if you don't like the look of the poop move on to another food.

ORIGINAL: losinsusan

Uh maybe Sandra's vet recommended Senior ONE rather than Senior Dog Chow because he as least knows that a meat first diet is preferrable to a corn first diet.  That isn't too hard to grasp is it?  No one should stay on Fit and Trim-its a vet recommended quick weight loss plan that works very well but is not or should not be used long term.  When the weight comes off you switch back and hopefully maintain that weight loss with a better food fed in small quantity and more exercise.  Believe it or not Sandra moving from the Chow line to the ONE line is a big step and a great step for her dogs.  Why is that blasted on any thread possible.  Let it rest already.  This is also the first time I have heard that Pro Plan is known for large poops!  I don't have that with my dog.  Nor have my regular customers reported that.  But poop is a great indicator of how your dog is digesting his food and if you don't like the look of the poop move on to another food.

Uh, maybe that's the point that a lot of us have been trying to make all along. [] That point being that a more meat based diet is better for dogs. Sandra didn't say that she switched because she thinks Purina One is better than Fit n Trim or Dog Chow Senior, she said that she switched because One is available at the place that she's now buying her other dog's food. I definitely think One is a big step up from Fit n Trim, but still not as good as a lot of other foods.

Also, I wouldn't say that dogs that are overweight and/or have arthritis are in great health. A lower grain, higher meat diet could DEFINITELY help with both of those issues. [8|]

Also, I wouldn't say that dogs that are overweight and/or have arthritis are in great health. A lower grain diet could DEFINITELY help with both of those issues.

100% totally agree! Infact, low grain diets are recommended for arthritic and overweight dogs.

ORIGINAL: corvus

I saw some extremely surprising and dramatic changes when Penny went from a mid-range kibble to homecooked.

The week we changed, her energy levels picked up so much that all my 3 housemates commented at some point that Penny was acting 'weird' because she was bouncing around like a puppy when for months she'd been plodding around like an old dog.

She also lost weight in the next few weeks. She was not especially overweight, but she slimmed down to a fantastic shape that everyone was commenting on.

Her arthritic aches and pains became a thing of the past. They just stopped and never came back.

Her stomach problems, which were the reason we switched, also vanished never to be seen again.

It really seemed like I'd turned back the clock on Penny. She went from looking and acting very old to looking and acting like a dog in her prime. She now keeps up with our 2 year old kelpie cross with no troubles at all and she's nothing bat hard muscle underneath her coat.

We changed my Mum's dogs, Pyry and Jill onto homecooked/raw recently.

Within a couple of weeks, Pyry's energy levels were higher, his coat had gone from dull, grimy and with flakey skin to shiny and healthy, and he lost a little weight as well. Jill's energy levels stayed the same. She had been doing all right on the kibble, but on the homecooked/raw, her coat glossed up very nicely and she looks to have a little more muscle on her, but she hasn't gained weight.

That's great! I've heard similar stories from other people. A lot of people consider a dog being overweight, not that active, and having arthritis to be "normal" then change to a higher quality food and find that they have a different dog!

KayCee got overweight while having knee problems over a couple of years.  Between the bad knees, surgeries, and  recovereies, she didn't get near the exercise she needed and packed on the weight.  I got the weight off and I keep her thin because of the knee surgeries and she will get arthritis in those knees.  And before anyone tells me it can be avoided,  start checking Dogster (where there has been a rash of knee surgeries lately) in fact almost any dog forum including archives here,  where dogs have had knee surgery and 99% of the time the vets do inform their owners the dogs will get arthritis  and at an earlier age than normal.And most, as did my vet, gets the dogs started on joint sups right away.  My vet is surprised that KayCee at age 7 still hasn't shown any arthritis in her knees.
 
And Buck is almost 12 and I don't find it unusal or rare  at all that he has arthritis in his hips and lower back  at that age.I do think very, very few dogs escape it, and I am not sure any actually do.  He actually gets around far better than I do--he trots and I have to walk and usually a limping walk at that. 

ORIGINAL: sandra_slayton

And Buck is almost 12 and I don't find it unusal or rare  at all that he has arthritis in his hips and lower back  at that age.I do think very, very few dogs escape it, and I am not sure any actually do.  He actually gets around far better than I do--he trots and I have to walk and usually a limping walk at that. 

So you still think it's just "normal" for a dog to get arthritis as it gets older and that it's totally out of the realm of possibility that a different food could help?

ORIGINAL: Luvntzus

ORIGINAL: corvus

I saw some extremely surprising and dramatic changes when Penny went from a mid-range kibble to homecooked.

The week we changed, her energy levels picked up so much that all my 3 housemates commented at some point that Penny was acting 'weird' because she was bouncing around like a puppy when for months she'd been plodding around like an old dog.

She also lost weight in the next few weeks. She was not especially overweight, but she slimmed down to a fantastic shape that everyone was commenting on.

Her arthritic aches and pains became a thing of the past. They just stopped and never came back.

Her stomach problems, which were the reason we switched, also vanished never to be seen again.

It really seemed like I'd turned back the clock on Penny. She went from looking and acting very old to looking and acting like a dog in her prime. She now keeps up with our 2 year old kelpie cross with no troubles at all and she's nothing bat hard muscle underneath her coat.

We changed my Mum's dogs, Pyry and Jill onto homecooked/raw recently.

Within a couple of weeks, Pyry's energy levels were higher, his coat had gone from dull, grimy and with flakey skin to shiny and healthy, and he lost a little weight as well. Jill's energy levels stayed the same. She had been doing all right on the kibble, but on the homecooked/raw, her coat glossed up very nicely and she looks to have a little more muscle on her, but she hasn't gained weight.

That's great! I've heard similar stories from other people. A lot of people consider a dog being overweight, not that active, and having arthritis to be "normal" then change to a higher quality food and find that they have a different dog!

I have to say that I didn't think there was anything especially wrong with Penny except that she was getting sick sometimes and getting old. I was NOT expecting the huge changes I saw in her in the least. Especially the arthritis. It was a total surprise to see that improve so much. When I changed her diet, I was dubious that it would help even her stomach problem, so you can imagine my delight when she suddenly became a picture of health and vitality. [] I also didn't consider that she might be overweight until she lost a few kilos and the vet told me she looked really good. I feel pretty sheepish that I never thought of checking the food I was giving her and seeing if changing it would help earlier. I encourage people to try a better quality food if their dog seems to be a little slow or achey, but at the same time, I'd be loathe to change Penny's diet considering how well she's doing on it, now. It's really tricky sometimes to tell if a dog is at the top of health or someplace in the middle. It took Penny to be getting towards the lower end of health for me to realise what was going on.

And Buck is almost 12 and I don't find it unusal or rare at all that he has arthritis in his hips and lower back at that age.

 
No Sandra, it's not at all unusual or rare that a 12 year old dog has arthritis. Most old dogs have arthritis. A lot of dogs die of cancer. Most dogs have horrible health at the end of their lives. I guess my issue is I don't want my dog to be like "most dogs". I want to do better than the average pet owner. I want my dog to be healthier than the average dog. And she is. And from the sound of it, yours are too, I'm not attacking you at all. I'm just saying that telling us that "most dogs" have all these health problems isn't a very good argument for feeding the same foods as "most dogs" eat. JMO.

Just curious.....why does every food thread here lately HAVE to be an attack on what other folks feed?

Sally's poops are smaller and more firm--she also poops less.  She seems to do better on higher protein.  We had her on an 18.5% protein food for a while, and she lost weight, lost muscle tone, and had horrible coat condition.
 
The best muscle tone/condition/coat condition was with a 36% protein food.  However, she developed an allergy to chicken.  We may end up rotating her to a high protein kibble and see how she does.
 
Is switching her food hard on her digestive system?  Not that I've seen.  Her system seems to be quite solid--I've switched her over cold turkey a number of times with no issue.

You cannot possibly ever know if your dog is "doing well" on what you are feeding. So your dog gets arthritis at age 12. Was it because of his food? maybe. So your dog gets cancer at age ten. Was it because of his food? maybe. The only way to be "safe" is to feed the best diet you can. The only way to identify the "best" diet is by observing how other dogs do on the diets they are fed. I observe that dogs fed grain-heavy diets don't, in general, remain as healthy as they age as dogs fed meat-heavy diets. So I do not feed a grain-heavy diet. Which eliminates the majority of commerical dog foods, including many that are said to be "premium" foods.