Am I slowly killing my dogs???

    • Gold Top Dog
    I am familiar with that article, you can find lots of debate and alarmist information about feeding raw..even just feeding your dog period.


    Hi;  Welcome to the new forum;[:)]  The raw versus kibble debates are usually "tamer" then they were on the old forum.  I agree that there is a lot of alarmist information about raw feeding but the site I referenced about toxoplasmosis is a holistic veterinary clinic that advocates raw feeding. The article refers to a study done by Dr. Liang who is Director of Food Safety at the CDC. There is an instance on one of the older nutrition threads here of someone who had a Beagle that became ill after eating raw meat; the vet said it was E-coli. I'm not saying it's something that shouldn't be done and I willfully asknowledge there are perhaps thousands of dogs being fed raw diets and doing well, but I believe pet owners should go into it knowing not just the benefits but the potential risks.
    • Gold Top Dog
    AND since my dog is having problems since feeding her a big piece of meat raw a few weeks ago,,,,any doubts that I do have about raw,, are coming to the surface.
    To me its not worth the worry. When I get her better,,,I won't do it again

     
      Dyan, what happened to Bubby? Is she doing okay?
    • Gold Top Dog
    but I believe pet owners should go into it knowing not just the benefits but the potential risks.

     
    Definately!
     
    Thank you for the welcome[:)] I work in a holistic minded little pet supply shop and I am forever telling people to research and decide for themselves. I feed mostly raw, but I do on occasion feed kibble, canned or cooked. I believe variety is key. I would never tell anyone there is only one way to feed a dog. It's awesome to be able to come to a site like this, trade information and learn.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think it's only fair to post Billinghursts rebuttal to the statements made at SCR.

    http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal.html
    • Gold Top Dog
    No matter what one "expert" says or "study" shows, you can always find an "expert" who says the opposite and a "study" that shows the opposite.  I think each person has to go with which one he belives is the "most correct".  Actually I think maybe the middle is probably the best place to be--that way you are not going off the deep end either way.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: kelly_c

    I'm hoping to hear that he's full of *!#*


    I can only give you my first hand experience.

    8+ years of feeding my dogs raw meat and bones.  In those 8+ years I figure I've fed over 12,000 POUNDS of raw meat and bones.  And I'm not anal about it being absolutely fresh.  I've fed some pretty 'green' meat.  HEck - my dogs eat their own and other animals stools - what's a little 'ripe' meat? :)

    So, 12,000 pounds of raw meat and bone fed and NEVER have I had a case of E-Coli or Salmonella.  Statistically speaking, if it was that dangerous wouldn't I have seen at least ONE case by now?  Keep in mind I was/am feeding puppies as young as 4 weeks of age, immune compromised dogs, dogs in very poor health and very old dogs.

    I've had one case of choking.  My Corgi mix, Winnie, likes to inhale her food.  She got a piece of chicken leg stuck in her throat.  I am always right there while the dogs eat so I was able to rush over, pry open her mouth, stick my fingers in there and get it out.  Now we make sure her pieces are very small so that if she does inhale it it can't possibly get stuck.

    That's a BIG reason why I stress that you need to be able to take ANYTHING from your dog's mouth - in case they are choking.  You don't want to be fighting them while you are trying to help them.

    Also, I've had one case of bad constipation.  My boy Remi had problems with turkey necks - too much bone.  I didn't learn that until the third day they had turkey necks for breakfast and when I took them out to potty he just couldn't pass the stool.  I had to assist him.  After that he got turkey necks no more than once a week.
    • Gold Top Dog
    lauric; This is OT but approximately what percent of a raw diet is protein? By raw diet I mean the type you feed, not the pre-mades, thanks.
       
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think raw can be dangerous for some dogs, particularly if not a recommended commercial brand. Some dogs are more sensitive than others, and if the mix of bone/fat/meat is not consistent, they can wind up in trouble. I do feed half raw and half cooked. I probably would have stayed with the cooked (make sure to supplement calcium) except the amount of work to cook and dice for three large, active dogs was killing me! The humans quit eating home cooked food. So, we went to a mix of a good commercial raw and 1/2 home cooked. This is working fine for us.
     
    I consulted with a holistic veterinarian and she recommends having a lot of variety in a dog's diet. Some raw, some dehydrated and some cooked, with a little kibble now and then.
    • Gold Top Dog
    It is certainly very important to do extensive research to ensure the balance of your pets' food. Here's an article you may find interesting.
     
    The Following was published in Journal of American Veterinary Medicine Volume 218, Number 5, March 1, 2001
    Authors:  Lisa M Freeman, DVM, PhD, DACVN and Kathryn E. Michel, DVM, MS, DACVN
    Veterinarians currently must deal with pet owners who, for better or worse, have access to a large body of information on small animal nutrition. There is a growing number of unconventional diets being promoted for dogs and cats, especially on the Internet. It is easy to understand the reasons why nutritional therapy has such a strong appeal. First and foremost, food is something that everyone can relate to, because it is one of the most basic necessities of life. Furthermore, food can have important effects on psychological well-being and is often involved in religious rituals. Diet is something that an owner can control. For these reasons, diet can take on considerable spiritual and psychological importance, particularly in circumstances in which people are dealing with other factors or forces beyond their control such as an incurable illness. Finally, nutritional therapy is viewed as natural (and, therefore, believed to be safe) and holistic; thus, this offers a fundamentally opposite approach to conventional medical practices that involve the use of surgery or administration of manufactured drugs.
    A good example of the interest in unconventional diets is raw food diets. Although raw meat has been added to the diets of sled dogs and racing greyhounds for many years, diets that consist entirely of raw meat, bones, and other ingredients are being fed to an increasing number of show animals and pets. Proponents of these diets claim numerous benefits such as improvement in coat and skin; elimination of breath, body, and feces odor; improvement in amount of energy and behavior: improvement in overall health and immune function; and reduction of the incidence of many medical conditions including allergies, arthritis pancreatitis, and parasitisms. Promotion of these diets is a good illustration of the principles that make nutritional therapy appealing to the public.
    The rationale for use of a raw food diet is simple. Dogs and cats are carnivores that evolved eating raw foods. In addition, commercial foods are heat processed, which alters or destroys nutrients and essential enzymes. Therefore, commercial foods may not be a natural or nutritionally sound diet for dogs or cats. The arguments are plausible, particularly to lay people, and can be reinforced by specific valid examples (eg, thiamin is extremely heat labile). However, these arguments do not generally fare well under careful scrutiny and are not supported by sound scientific evidence. It is a growing challenge to veterinary practitioners to be sufficiently informed such that they can discuss the benefits and risks of various dietary practices in a nonconfrontational manner with pet owners; at the least, this allows owners the opportunity to make a balanced informed choice for their pet.
    Real difficulties face practitioners who use conventional medicine (or who combine conventional medicine with some alternative or complementary modalities) when it comes to making a decision about when and how to incorporate various aspects of nutritional management into their practices. As with every aspect of medicine, practitioners should strive to use an evidence-based approach. However, data are scarce, and well-conducted clinical trials are scarcer. We describe here an outline of some of the more common raw food diets being fed and provide objective information regarding their nutritional and health risks. This should provide veterinary practitioners a context in which to approach this subject with their clients.
    Types of Raw Food Diets
    All raw food diets are not alike. In fact, there are a number of types of raw food diets currently being fed to dogs and cats. However, there are 3 major categories of raw food diets.
    Commercially available complete raw food diets—These diets are intended to be complete and balanced without the need for additional supplements. These diets typically are sold in a frozen form.(a-c)
     Homemade complete raw food diets—Many recipes for homemade raw food diets are available in books and articles as well as on the Internet. The 3 most popular homemade raw food diets are the bones and raw food (BARF) diet, the Ultimate diet, and the Volhard diet. The BARF diet was popularized by Dr. Ian Billinghurst (1). The BARF diet advocates a diet “consisting of 60% raw, meaty bones,#%92 with the rest being made up of a wide variety of foods, based on the type and quantity of foods a wild dog would eat.”#%92 Those other foods would include lots of green vegetables (to mimic stomach contents of prey), some offal (liver, kidneys, etc), meat, eggs, milk, brewer#%92s yeast, yogurt, and small amounts of grains and legumes.” The diet is expected to be balanced overall, but each meal is not balanced. For instance, Dr. Billinghurst recommends feeding several meals, each of which consists entirely of green leafy vegetables, starchy foods, grains and legumes, meat, milk, offal, or food scraps, during a period of 2 to 3 weeks. A typical schedule could include 10 meals of bones combined with 4 meals of green leafy vegetables, I meal of starchy food, 1 meal of grains and legumes, 1 meal of meat alone, 2 meals of milk, and 1 or 2 meals of offal during the period of 2 to 3 weeks.
    The Ultimate diet program was described by Kymythy Schultze in 1998. In this diet, Schultze recommends a type of food pyramid, with the largest portion of the diet consisting of raw meat (both muscle tissues and organs).(2)  Raw eggs also are included in this category. Raw bones make up the second-largest section of the diet, followed by raw vegetables. An "extras” category is fed in the smallest quantities and is used to “make up for the depletion of our soils that contributes to the lower nutrient content of our foods.”#%92 This category includes kelp and alfalfa, essential fatty acids, and vitamin C.
    A raw homemade diet also has been recommended by Wendy Volhard. Cereal is fed in the morning, consisting of grains, molasses, oil, egg, yogurt, and vitamins.(3) The evening meal consists of raw beef (muscle tissues and liver), fresh and dry greens and herbs, wheat bran, wheat germ, bone meal, garlic, brewer#%92s yeast, kelp, apple cider vinegar, cod liver oil, and vitamin C. Other foods are recommended on a rotating basis (eg, fruit is given 3 times/wk), and removal of all food is recommended for one half day every week.
    Combination diets—These consist of commercially available grain-and-supplement mixes. The grain mix is to be fed in combination with raw meat.
     
    Potential Risks
    Although there are numerous claims to the health benefits of raw food diets, all are anecdotal. Putting aside the lack of evidence for benefits of these diets, there are a number of important concerns regarding raw food diets. First, there is the nutritional balance of the diets. It can be difficult to formulate a balanced homemade diet in the best of circumstances. Nutritional imbalances in these diets can cause health problems in the animals that eat them, especially young, growing animals. Other potential problems with raw food diets relate to safety. The raw bones included in many of these diets carry risks, and although the actual incidence of complications resulting from ingestion of raw bones is unknown, there are reports of intestinal obstruction, gastrointestinal perforation, gastroenteritis, and fractured teeth in animals consuming raw bones as a component of raw food diets. Finally, uncooked meat carries the risk of bacterial contamination. Although proponents of the diets argue that dogs are more resistant to bacteria than are people, to our knowledge, this has not been proven to be true. Raw meat diets also can pose a risk to pet owners who formulate and mix the diets, especially people who are young, elderly or immunocompromised.
    Many arguments exist on both sides of the issue, and neither side has provided evidence to prove that their argument is correct. We have concerns regarding nutritional and safety issues of raw food diets but have been hesitant to make recommendations because of a lack of scientific information. Therefore, our goal was to objectively assess whether raw food diets prepared by typical pet owners are nutritionally balanced and safe.
    Nutritional Analysis of Raw Food Diets
    To perform analyses of homemade diets, we contacted 3 owners who we knew were preparing raw food diets for their dogs. Owners were selected only on the basis of proximity so that we could obtain a sample of the freshly made diets. All 3 owners agreed to participate. Exact recipes of the diets were not provided to us, although all owners used human-quality ingredients. Each owner prepared a serving of the diet that they usually fed to their dog. A chilled sample of the food was brought to our facilities. After arrival at our facilities, samples were handled in an aseptic manner throughout processing. Samples were ground in a sterilized manual meat grinder, because all diets contained entire breasts or legs of chickens. After grinding and complete mixing, an aliquot (100 g) was sealed aseptically in a plastic bag and shipped at 4 C (2 samples) or —20 C (1 sample) to a laboratory for analysis. All shipments arrived at the laboratory within 18 hours after processing at our facilities.
    Two commercial diets were purchased for analysis. Commercial diet l (Sojourner Farms European-Style Dog Food Mix) was a combination diet in which a grain-and-supplement mix was purchased and mixed with raw meat and water in accordance with the manufacturer#%92s directions. After mixing, the diet was stored overnight in a refrigerator. The next day the diet was mixed thoroughly and an aliquot (100 g) was obtained aseptically and frozen at —20 C. Commercial diet 2 (Steve's Real Food for Dogs), was a complete food that is sold frozen and is intended to be fed without additional supplements. The frozen diet was ground in a sterilized meat grinder and mixed, and a 100-g aliquot was obtained aseptically and frozen at —20 C. Samples of both commercial diets were shipped at —20 C to a laboratory for analysis, and all shipments arrived at the laboratory within 18 hours after processing at our facilities.
    Samples from the 5 diets (3 homemade diets and 2 commercial diets) were analyzed to determine concentrations of macronutrients (protein, crude fat), macrominerals (calcium, phosphorus, potassium, sodium, and magnesium), trace minerals (iron, manganese, zinc), and vitamins (vitamins A [retinoll, D, and E). Results of nutritional analysis were compared with nutrient standards for maintenance or growth and reproduction that were developed by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO). Microbial analysis also was completed at the same laboratory to determine total bacterial count and for identification of Salmonella spp and Escherichia coli 0157:H7.
    Comparison of Homemade and Commercial Raw Food Diets with AAFCO Standards
    Homemade diets 1(BARF) and 2 (ULTIMATE)were being fed to adult large-breed dogs (an Irish Wolfhound and Saint Bernard, respectively), whereas homemade diet 3(VOLHARD) was being fed to a 4-month-old Bull Mastiff. The nutritional analyses for homemade diets 1 and 2 and both commercial diets were compared with the AAFCO nutrient standards for maintenance of adult dogs (Table 1). Homemade diet 1 was being fed in accordance with the BARF diet regimen, whereas homemade diet 2 was being fed in accordance with the Ultimate diet regimen. Both of these homemade diets and commercial diet 1 were low in calcium and phosphorus content and had an unbalanced calcium-to-phosphorus ratio (homemade diet 1 and commercial diet 1 had a low calcium-to-phosphorus ratio, and homemade diet 2 had a high calcium-to-phosphorus ratio). Both commercial diets and homemade diets 1 and 2 were high in vitamin D content. Two of the diets contained less than the AAFCO minimums for concentrations of potassium (homemade diet 1 and commercial diet 1), manganese (homemade diets 1 and 2), and zinc (homemade diets 1 and 2). Other nutritional imbalances included low concentrations of iron (homemade diet 2) and magnesium (homemade diet 1) and high concentrations of magnesium (homemade diet 2), zinc (commercial diet 1), and vitamin E (homemade diet 1).
    Nutritional analysis for homemade diet 3 and commercial diets 1 and 2 were compared with the AAFCO nutrient standards for growth (Table 2). The labels on the 2 commercial diets claimed that they met the requirements for growth, reproduction, and maintenance. The puppy (homemade diet 3) was being fed in accordance with the Voihard diet regimen. Homemade diet 3 had low concentrations of sodium, iron, and zinc, high calcium content, and a high calcium-to-phosphorus ratio. Homemade diet 3 was higher in vitamin E than the AAFCO maximum. Although there are purported benefits to providing vitamin E supplements in excess of nutritional requirements, it appears that there is an optimal dose and that higher doses (nearly 900 IU/d in homemade diet 3) may have negative effects on immune function. Compared with the AAFCO standards for growth, the 2 commercial diets also had multiple shortcomings. Both commercial diets were low in phosphorus and sodium concentrations and contained concentrations of vitamin D that were higher than maximal recommended amounts. Commercial diet 1 also was severely deficient in calcium content, had a calcium-to-phosphorus ratio of 0.15, was low in potassium content, and had a high concentration of zinc. These imbalances are of special concern in growing puppies.
    Microbial analyses were performed on all 5 diets, including a standard plate count for all bacteria and identification of E coli 0157:H7. In addition, all 3 homemade diets were analyzed for Salmonella spp. Homemade diet 1 yielded positive results when tested for E coli 0157:H7 . None of the 3 homemade diets yielded Salmonella spp, but total bacterial counts ranged from 45,000 to 760,000 colony-forming units/g. Although it is difficult to interpret the total plate counts in terms of health risks to an animal, the high count of 760,000 colony-forming units/g likely indicates a product of deteriorating quality.
    Additional Considerations
    Several difficulties arise when assessing the nutritional adequacy of a diet by using only results of laboratory analysis. First is the obvious question regarding the portion of the nutritional content of a diet detected during analysis that is actually bioavailable to the animal consuming it. The second issue involves the standard used for establishing the nutritional adequacy of a diet. In this case, we chose to use the AAFCO nutrient standards. We selected them because they are the standard that is currently used by the pet food industry In developing minimum values, AAFCO has tried to consider variation in nutrient availability of ingredients and requirements of the pet population. They also have provided maximum values for nutrients that have the potential to cause adverse effects when consumed in excess. A discussion about the limitations of the use of AAFCO standards or formulation of complete and balanced diets for pets is beyond the scope of this report. Suffice it to say that these standards are not an absolute requirement, and when a diet is made from ingredients that contain a highly bioavailable form of a nutrient, the diet may be adequate despite the fact it contains less of that nutrient than indicated in the AAFCO values. However, even if it was assumed that the nutrients in the diets analyzed had a bioavailability of 100%, in most cases the nutrients that were deficient when compared with AAFCO standards also were deficient when compared with the more stringent guidelines established by the National Research Council.
    Recommendations
    The owners whose diets were tested for the purposes of this report had the best intentions of feeding their dogs appropriate high-quality diets to enhance their health. It is important to remember that most people feeding raw food diets are educated and research the topic before embarking on this path. Nonetheless, the results of the small number of diets analyzed here indicated that there are clearly nutritional and health risks associated with feeding raw food diets. All the diets tested had nutrient deficiencies or excesses that could cause serious health problems when used in a long-term feeding program. Of equal concern are the health risks associated with bacteria in the raw food diets, especially the homemade diet that yielded E coli 0157:H7. Although owners feeding raw food diets often claim that dogs are more resistant to pathogenic bacteria, we are not aware of evidence to support that claim. In addition, owners of these pets are at risk of infection as a result of handling the meat or from cross-contamination of common dishes and utensils used to prepare the diets. This can be a problem, especially for households that include young, elderly or immunocompromised individuals. Although only diets formulated for dogs were tested for this report, cats also are being fed these diets and clearly are exposed to the same potential risks.
     For owners who wish to feed homemade diets, we often recommend a compromise: feed a good-quality commercial diet and supplement it with fresh fruits and vegetables. In some situations, homemade diets can he useful (eg, animals with a medical problem that will not eat a commercial therapeutic diet or animals with multiple conditions for which there is not an ideal commercial therapeutic diet). However, we strongly recommend that all homemade diets be cooked and that they be formulated by a credentialed veterinary nutritionist. Qualifications for nutritionists are ill-defined, so it is important to check credentials (for recommendations on nutritionists, contact the American College of Veterinary Nutrition or the American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition). Finally when owners elect to use a nutritionally balanced cooked homemade diet, careful monitoring is necessary because subclinical deficiencies still can develop when these diets are fed on a long-term basis. Health problems that may result from insufficient nutrient intake include secondary nutritional hyperparathyroidism (calcium), dermatoses (zinc), or anemia (iron). Health problems that may develop from excessive nutrient intake include developmental orthopedic conditions (calcium), hypercalcemia (vitamin D), or interference with bioavailability of other minerals (zinc).
    a Steve#%92s Real Food for Dogs, Steve#%92s Real Food, Eugene, Ore.
    b Bil-Jac Fresh Frozen diet, Bil-Joe Foods, Medina, Ohio.
    c Meat Eater Diet for Dogs, Animal Food Services, lola, Wis.
    d Sojourner Farms European-Style Dog Food Mix, Sojourner Farms, Minneapolis, Minn.
    e Woodson-Tenent Laboratories, Memphis, Tenn.
    REFERENCES
    Billinghurst I. Feeding the adult dog. Give your dog a bone. Alexandria, Australia: Bridge Printery, 1993;265—280.
    2. Schultze KR. The ultimate diet. Descanso, Calif: Affenbar Ink, 1998;22—33.
    3. Volhard W, Brown K. The natural diet. The holistic guidefor a healthy dog. New York: Howell Book House, 1995;167—190.
    4. Association of American Feed Control Officials. Official publication. Oxford, Ind: Association of American Feed Control Officials, 2000;125—134.
    5. Meydani SN, Meydani M, BlumbergJB, et al. Vitamin E supplementation and in vivo immune response in healthy elderly subjects. JAMA 1997;277:1380—1386.
    Table 1  Nutritional analysis for 2 homemade diets and 2 commercial diets, compared
    with the nutrient standards for adult dogs established by the American Association of
    Feed Control Officials
                                            AAFCO AAFCO   Homemade Diets    Commercial
                                              min      max               1            2            1            2
    Protein g/100kcal              5.14          -            6.60        5.37        6.77        8.04
    Crude Fat g/100kcal         1.43            -           8.10        8.17        4.44        9.18
    Calcium g/100kcal            0.17        0.17          0.12        0.15        0.02        0.35
    Phos g/100kcal                 0.14        0.46          0.13        0.06        0.11        0.22
    Cal:Phos ratio                  1                -            0.92        2.50        0.15        1.61
    Potassium g/kcal              0.17        -              0.12         1.15        0.15        0.19
    Sodium g/kcal                 0.017        -             0.040        0.240     0.030      0.070
    Magnesuim g/kcal           0.011        0.086        0.010       0.170     0.036      0.027
    Iron mg/100kcal              2.3           86            3.9          2.0           19              29
    Manganese mg/100kcal    0.14        -                0.10          0.90        27.2           1.5
    Zinc  mg/100kcal             3.4        29              0.8            0.5          43            11.0
    Vit A IU/100kcal            143        7,143          5270        4145        543            354
    VitD IU/100kcal              14            143          2410        1267        247            361
    VitE IU/100kcal            1                29            160            5            8                 5
    Calories kcal/100g        -                   -             189            145        102            152
    Homemade diet 1 was being fed to an adult large-breed dog in accordance with the hones and raw food (BARF diet program, and homemade diet 2 was being fed to an adult large-breed dog in accordance with the Ultimate diet program. Commercial diet 1 was a combination diet(a grain-supplement mix prepared with raw meat), and commercial diet 2 was a complete frozen diet.
    — = Not established.
     
     
     
    Table 2—Nutritional analyses for a homemade diet and 2 commercial diets, compared with the nutrient standards for growing dogs established by AAFCO
     
     
                                            AAFCO AAFCO   Homemade    Commercial
                                              min      max               3                   1            2
    Protein g/100kcal            6.29          -            7.13                 6.77        8.04
    Crude Fat g/100kcal        2.29        -            6.29                   4.44        9.18
    Calcium g/100kcal           0.29        0.71        0.81                 0.02        0.35
    Phos g/100kcal                0.14        0.46        0.33                  0.11        0.22
    Cal:Phos ratio                  1                -            2.5                 0.15        1.61
    Potassium g/kcal            0.17        -              0.12                   0.15        0.19
    Sodium g/kcal                0.086        -            0.070               0.030      0.070
    Magnesuim g/kcal         0.011        0.086      0.042                0.036      0.027
    Iron mg/100kcal             2.3           86            1.8                    19              29
    Manganese mg/100kcal  0.14        -              0.41                    27.2           1.5
    Zinc  mg/100kcal             3.4        29            1.1                     43            11.0
    Vit A IU/100kcal            143        7,143        1605                   543            354
    VitD IU/100kcal              14            143           44                   247            361
    VitE IU/100kcal                1            29              62                     8                5
    Calories kcal/100g        -                   -            152                    102            152
    Homemade Diet 3 was being fed to a 4-month-old, large breed puppy in accordance with the Volhard Diet.
    Commercial Diets 1 and 2 had label claims that they met the requirements for growth and reproduction.
     
    10/1/01  A correction has been published that retracts the observation that the vitamin D content for the
    Steve's brand diet was excessive.    oaklandvet.com editor note
     
     
    This was not a feeding trial but it was lab analysis of the nutrient balance, or lack thereof.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: jessies_mom

    lauric; This is OT but approximately what percent of a raw diet is protein? By raw diet I mean the type you feed, not the pre-mades, thanks.
      


    Here's an example.

    100 grams of chicken breast (meat and skin but no bone) has the following values:

    69.46% water
    20.85% protein
    9.25% fat
    1.01% Ash

    I used the USDA Nutritional Database to find this info.  They do not include bone in any of the numbers so I can't give you a 100% accurate breakdown.

    Here's another example - 100 grams of beef heart (they list veins, fat and connective tissue as refuse - I would feed those):

    77.11% water
    17.72% protein
    3.94% fat
    1.10% ash
    .14% Carbs

    • Gold Top Dog
    Thank you Ron, that was very interesting. The point that fascinates me most is how the study methodology completely ignores the most important ground for fresh food feeding health - variety over time. However, the data is excellent because if you examine it carefully, you'll note that the highs and lows that concerned them indeed waved gently back and forth (with no extreme evident) over the AAFCO standards.

    I'm not moved from my belief that if I offer my dogs a variety of fresh healthy foods catered to thier individual needs, I don't expect harm to come from it. Any more than I expect harm to come from the fresh more-or-less healthy diet I offer my young kids. My pediatrician doesn't insist that I feed Kid Chow and seems to have confidence in my ability to balance their diets (in spite of the fact that I was raised on cheap hot dogs with no buns and ramen, essentially, for lack of money).
    • Gold Top Dog
       Thank you Lauric;  I was curious because of the new high protein dry diets such as EVO and Barking At The Moon that are supposed to imitate a raw diet.  If the data you presented is already given on a dry matter basis then the new high protein kibble may be too much protein to be healthy long term. The ash levels in EVO are high; 12.38%,  so it probably isn't safe to feed a dog long term anyway; the ash content of Barking At The Moon isn't on their site but is likely to be high because they use very concentrated meat meals.  If an owner wants to feed their dog a diet that resembles a "natural" diet or a diet similar to what wolves ate I think it is much healthier for the dog to feed a well balanced raw diet or a good pre-made raw instead of EVO or Barking At The Moon.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I read the article twice, myself. They set forth the limits of their study and recognize that some points are beyond the scope of the study. For example, it was not a feeding trial. Second, they received sample meals from people using the feeding methods mentioned but did not receive the exact recipes made. So, they can't exactly recommend how to fix it. And a feeding trial of the method would indeed be definitive. I, for one, can't see my dog being happy with a bowl of milk for a day or two. Or, just collard greens. for another day, or two. Also, there can be a problem with oversupplementing certain elements. The body is so busy trying to assimilate the overload of one vit that it doesn't have the time or space to absorb the other necessary ingredients. And past a certain level, vit E can have toxic effects.
     
    I'm not trying to turn anyone off of feeding raw, but these are things to consider carefully when feeding raw. FWIW, in competition dog sledding, the dogs are vetted constantly, especially during the Last Great Race, regardless of what they are fed. Mushers will adjust protein/fat ratios depending on the medical advice. Some mushers feed raw, some feed cooked, and some, including some winners, feed kibble plus additional meat, such as fish.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    waved gently back and forth (with no extreme evident) over the AAFCO standards

     
    The cal to phos ratio was way off in most cases and the vit D was way high.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Nonetheless, the results of the small number of diets analyzed here indicated that there are clearly nutritional and health risks associated with feeding raw food diets. All the diets tested had nutrient deficiencies or excesses that could cause serious health problems when used in a long-term feeding program. Of equal concern are the health risks associated with bacteria in the raw food diets, especially the homemade diet that yielded E coli 0157:H7. Although owners feeding raw food diets often claim that dogs are more resistant to pathogenic bacteria, we are not aware of evidence to support that claim

     
    I would have to say, that is enough to concern me about the long term effects of a totally raw diet.
    My dogs get some raw meat/bones now and then, but they get the base of nutrition from commercial kibble. At least I know that they are getting what their bodies need and if I choose to add other items, then I can adjust one way or the other to compensate. However, as I said, they don't get a large portion of their nutrition from "enhancements".