Verbal Commands vs. Body Language

Good point -- but that is why I'm such an anomaly in training because one of the things I rely on HEAVILY is body language. 

When I'm not happy with my dogs I stand (or sit) ramrod stiff, either with my arms crossed tightly or my hands fisted on my hips.

If you think about how dogs communicate with each other -- the position of the ears, the tension in the skin of the body, how much the whites of the eyes show, tail position, etc.  -- it's ALL about body language. 

Because I'm more than a little handicapped a lot of what we work on with the dogs is physical placement.  A dog crowding me from behind can offset me and make me fall.  So a broad gesture POINTING "Go THERE" works incredibly well. 

 It's more difficult for us than for the dogs to train this way -- because we tend to only be verbal. 

Except -- ALL OF US have ethnic and family "body language" that we understand VERY well, and it's what can make us extremely uncomfortable with some people.  That person you just can't quite seem to "understand" -- it is sometimes because what they "say" is contrary to how we read their body language.  We just do a LOT of that subconsciously.

Learning to bring that to the front and use it with the dogs takes real effort..

 I am really enjoying learning so much about dog behavior and training!

Jewlieee, you do Search and Rescue?  Our Agility instructor is in a K9 Search and Rescue, as well.  Good!

Callie, The "shift" from obedience training classes - making the dog follow my verbals - to Agility - forcing me to pay attention to MY body -- sure is creating some funny moments!  (Some frustrating ones as well)

I used verbal and hand with Shadow which worked so well he got me out of a pile of grape vines I just trimmed and got caught in.  I was laughing so hard that I couldnt tell him what to do so I used my hand signals to have him come to me, lean his head down so I could get hold of his collar the the back up signal to pull me out of the mess I was in, lol.  After that I was a firm believer in hand signals.  I specifically wanted him to be  able to help DH if he should fall and not be able to get up.  Of course Shadow passed early in his life but that skill and knowledge lived on.

We have found that it is great for the dogs and in fact Ron has such a booming voice that when we got Hot Shot that was the best way for him.  He was so fearful of noise, and hands (so certain he had been beaten), soft gentle movements work so much better on Hot than verbal commands.  We do talk to the boys but fun stuff is verbal most of the time :)  Like "yogurts", "treats", "dinner", and Ron's favorite for Rocky....in a low whisper "get that squirel" :)

Freedom

...Callie, The "shift" from obedience training classes - making the dog follow my verbals - to Agility - forcing me to pay attention to MY body -- sure is creating some funny moments!  (Some frustrating ones as well)

A lot of obedience is visual, you just don't realize it.  For example, in a trial, you can only give the "Heel" command once before a halt.  Which means you can't give a command when you make a turn, change pace or turn around.  You use your body to give the dog a cue as to what you're going to do.  A beautiful example is when someone handed me their Irish Setter to take through a practice Rally course.  My verbal commands are different from just about every one else's where we train.  But that IS didn't set a foot wrong because, no matter what I said to her, she cued off my body language.  My friend's Labs do the same thing.  It's just more obvious in agility. 

micksmom

  A lot of obedience is visual, you just don't realize it.

I didn't mean Rally O! (as we call it at the place I attend).  I meant just the Basic Manners class, for owners with a new dog, to teach them sit, stay, lie down, come.  Not sure now what the proper term would be.  

Rally O! had so many "sits" in it that Lacey got bored and went right down, flopped over and went to sleep.  I could just see the caption in a cartoon bubble:  "You wanna sit, you sit, I'm going to dream land! " But that is another topic, lol.

 Basic Obedience does have a lot of body language,. If you ask your dog to sit and you're bent over the dog to far, she'll back up or lie down. Turning left or right in a walk, the dog cues from your feet and shoulder as to which way you're turning.

I had to learn in agility to watch where my feet were pointing. I'd send Sandy over the A-frame and she'd pop off and go to the tunnel and jumps, because, damnit that's where my foot was pointing even thou my hand was pointing to the dog walk. LOL

 I never got a dog competitive in agility, but it was so obvious watching videos of one of my friends with her dog. She was looking at him, and giving a cue to go another way. Her body wasn't telling him what to do at all, so he had no clue, and he went where he felt like going.

One of the things that helped me so much in rally, even though I didn't get Luke competing (may go back and do it with Callie, and I might get him in Cavalier obedience at some point) was when I read in a book that if you want the dog to come with, step off on the left, and if you want a stay, step off on the right. If the foot near them goes first, they should follow. If it doesn't, they stay. Luke actually did pretty well with heeling stuff, because he just watched my eyes. He just wanted to keep himself where he could stare at me. 

In weight pulling, Callie's cue to start her pull has nothing to do with what I say to her. The cue to start the pull is my dropping one knee down.  I was walking backward while facing her, and she was starting before I dropped the knee, if I took a larger step back. I've  started working now on walking away with my back to her. I want to make it more distinguishable for her when I am actually dropping my knee and giving her the cue to start her pull. She likes to bring it in and lean on me, so getting down like that keeps her from bringing the weight in and jumping to get to me.

yes, dogs do react to body language in agility we don't even know we're giving. and yes, we do have to train ourselves to give the correct body cue- feet and shoulders pointing in the right direction. BUT dogs also love A-frames. generally it's a lot of fun for most of them and because it is a obstacle with certain criteria- the dog must have at least one paw in the yellow contact zone-we train more on it and give better treats for accomplishing it correctly. so the dog learns "hey, i'll really get some good stuff if i take this frame rather than tunnel, which she is yelling wildly at me!"

Freedom

micksmom

  A lot of obedience is visual, you just don't realize it.

 

I didn't mean Rally O! (as we call it at the place I attend).  I meant just the Basic Manners class, for owners with a new dog, to teach them sit, stay, lie down, come.  Not sure now what the proper term would be...

calling it Basic Manners works for me.   

oranges81

 Basic Obedience does have a lot of body language,. If you ask your dog to sit and you're bent over the dog to far, she'll back up or lie down. Turning left or right in a walk, the dog cues from your feet and shoulder as to which way you're turning...

That's what I meant- no matter the type of obedience, body language is involved somehow.  I used my Rally experience as an example because that's all I had. If I didn't use the same visual/body cues as the owners, the dogs wouldn't have been able to do work so well with me.  

Honestly, tho no matter what you do, even if it's just hanging out and not competing, communicating with dogs includes body language - we just don't realize it a lot of the times. 

rufftie

so the dog learns "hey, i'll really get some good stuff if i take this frame rather than tunnel, which she is yelling wildly at me!"

ROFL~~   A Frame is definitely Willy's fave, always has been lol.  With his short legs and L-O-N-G back, I have never had to train contacts.  Now my Riley has started Intro to Agility and with her poodle legs and body (she is a poochon), I am going to have to train contacts! 

 I do enjoy all the behavior stuff (not into the medical stuff at ALL!) with my pets!

 If you ever wonder which your dog is actually conditioned to (verbal vs hand signal), try giving the command verbally.  Then if nothing happens, give the hand signal/body language cue.  Try it again some other time in reverse order.

Some things my dog responds to verbal commands only, with no doubt.  COME! is not a body/hand signal.  I need her to hear my voice, stop forward progression away from me, and come back immediately.  If I had to rely on her seeing me, I'd be screwed.

When I command heel from the front position, it's a verbal cue, but I realize that's only because every other possible command I give from there comes with a hand signal.  Plus my face forming the word heel makes it clear what I want from her. :D

 Dogs and Obedience are a lot of fun.