Echo running off- ignore? How long?

 Aesop has done that from time to time, he thinks it is a grand game. Ignoring a recall here gets you 'on leash for yard trips' grounding while we work on the recall. Running off/playing keep away is self rewarding, so I don't want them to be able to practice the undesired behavior.

Ditto the suggestion to keep her on lead.  Not sure what would be taught by ignoring her for a day or more.  Nothing constructive, IMO.

The more often you allow her to blow you off, the harder it will be to instill a solid recall.  I don't let dogs off lead where there is ANY chance of danger if they took off.  Ever.  I keep a dog on a lead or a long line and constantly call them in to me and give them a treat  Gabby has been reinforced so many hundreds and hundreds of times for coming to me when I whistle that she will run full tilt to me when I whistle.  But if I even suspect that she will choose to ignore me, I don't call her.  She's young enough now that I am her favorite option. lol  When she reaches the age of teenage rebellion, her recall will be so conditioned, that the odds are she will still choose me over other distractions.  She'll still be on lead, in case she decides to flip me off.  Don't allow bad habits to become instilled and you will save yourself and the dog much grief and upset.

 Exercise is all fine and good but it doesn't teach Echo anything.  

You need to practice recalls in a safe environment and everytime the dog comes to you throw a big party. Never ever ever punish a dog for coming to you. I don't care if it takes you 30 mins or 3 hrs to get the dog back to you. If you don't act happy and throw a party it will talk that much longer to get the dog back next time.

Since you crated the dog, now it thinks - oh I was having a blast, then I obeyed mom and she put me in a crate! What fun is that? Next time I won't obey.

You have to be way more fun than anything else when it is off leash. Really, you should take a class on this. Its so important.

  I would follow this training program to teach a solid recall: http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/Lesson6.html

 If she is door dashing, I would really work on door manners. She must sit and wait before she goes out each and every time, no exceptions. She may have to drag a leash around the house to prevent her from being successful at door dashing. I would set up practice sessions for the door every day.

  Echo runs away when she is off leash because it is rewarding for her to do so and it sounds like she's "practiced" it quite a few times. Scolding her when she comes back is not going to help because she has already had a very strong reward for running away (the freedom to run!!) and because punishment is not effective after the fact. Ignoring her for days will not teach her a good recall.

  PWDs are a very high energy breed and Echo really needs some outlet for running. Do you have a fenced yard? Friends with a fenced yard? A fenced baseball field nearby? Or tennis court? Or can you get her a treadmill to run on? If she doesn't have an outlet for running, that is likely a big reason she runs away whenever she gets the chance.

I do not scold her when she returns. SHe was praised lavishly when she came to my side for the 'heel' command.  Keeping her on leash- well yes of course, any time we are outside and bring her out to join us but  she is a door dasher- her manners are wonderful if I or dh open the door, but it was one of the kids and zooom! she took her chance.  There is a 'dog park' nearby full of sand and burrs and she comes away filthy every time. HOwever, it is no bigger than our fenced yard. 

We are attending a class and have learned an "emergency recall" but she knows when I don't have treats right at hand (in an instance such as the door dashing) and would rather run wide scoot loops at full tilt than come to me.

I actually saw a copy of Dont' Shoot the Dog at the library, I will go pick it up this afternoon. 

She is just a stinker sometimes, and I was just venting at the moment- my heart was in my throat after cars dodging her zoomies...

So it sounds like your initial issue is with door manners, not with running away from you! And then you have the problem that once she knows she's free, she knows you can't catch her.

I have an article on teaching Door manners, if you want to PM your email addy I will send it to you.

It sounds like your plan of attack should be:

1) Teach door manners. This is twofold:
- Teach your dog not to go through doors until released
- Teach your dog to reorient to your when your dog passes through a door (by looking to you and sitting, for example). This prevents the all-knowing door manners for release, but as soon as released shoots through the door like a cannon.

2) In the meantime, prevent door-rushing. Kennel, tether, or have a long line on the dog every time somebody comes/goes from the door. If you need to, set up a second barrier, such as a baby gate, between the dog and the entrance so your dog physcially can't rush the door. Every time she is successful, will make it that much more difficult to change the behaviour.

3) Work on your recall exercise - separately. You should work to teach her that just because you don't have food on you at that moment, you can make it appear magically. You can do this by hiding treats in jars in different rooms, by the main entrance, and by even calling her and then running with her to the reward area and giving her a reward. You can even set up practice situations where your dog knows the treats are in a sealed jar on the ground, and you can recall her, then run with her to the jar and give her a reward. Make sure you haven't fallen into the trap of *only relevant when dangling rewards or a treat pouch*.

I'll often do *Schnauzer races* where I recall all three and then race into the house and give a great treat to the fastest, and a mediocre-treat to the two slower ones. It really does help them to recall quickly, and to know that they can heed a request even if I'm not dangling treats.

  A dog park would not be my first choice for a dog with a poor recall. You need to take her places where she can drag a very long lead but safely run. Please read the article I posted :)

  Don't Shoot the Dog is an interesting read but don't expect much in the way of dog training advise. It is more on the theory behind clicker training and how-tos of clicker training and is not at all dog specific. 

One of the things I do, when I'm teaching a recall, (or I will say I do this with the kids with autism I work with as well) is do a ton of practice and reinforcement for orienting to me when I call their name. This was puppy class homework when I took my dogs to training. One week, the homework was to do this a few hundred times with your puppy. If you can get the dog, the person, whatever, to look orient in your direction, you have much better chances of getting them to come to you. I don't call any organism without first getting their attention.

Second, mix, vary, and make your reinforcers unpredictable. If she knows when you have it or not, you need to change that. Sometimes I only just call Luke's name to get him to look at me, and I allow him to return to what he wants. Sometimes he gets nothing, other times he gets food, sometimes I have a ball. A lot of times, I don't necessarily have the item right on me. In particular, when we're at the dog park, we can't have food. Sometimes, the reinforcer is that I release him to go back and play, and other times, I'll grab a ball off the ground for him. What he has to do changes from time to time too. Sometimes I ask him to do something, other times I grab his collar or pick him up before I let him go off again. The frequency of doing something crummy, like going home from the park, is far lower than the other things. We only go home once each time, I call him far more often than that. You should do that in the yard, call her a bunch of times not just when you want to go in. Fortunately for me, my dog tires out pretty quickly. If I throw a ball for him, in 15-20 minutes, he will happily trot his butt back to me to go home and stay with me in a heel until we get to the area to put his leash on. At that point, going into the A/C in the car is probably a pretty good reinforcer.

Agile, I read the ariticle, thank you. And I've taken everyone's suggestions and began to apply them to myself and Echo.  Today I practiced her recall several times throughout the day. She was reinforced with food, toys, chewies and lots of loving.  That got the other 2 girls coming quick as can be as well. 

I also reminded the kids, if they want to go out the door to call me- but then they themselves give her the 'wait' command.  That worked well too.  My 6 yr old has really caught on and has very good timing!

Thanks so much everyone- as always you have awesome insight :)

shamrockmommy

I do not scold her when she returns. SHe was praised lavishly when she came to my side for the 'heel' command.  Keeping her on leash- well yes of course, any time we are outside and bring her out to join us but  she is a door dasher- her manners are wonderful if I or dh open the door, but it was one of the kids and zooom! she took her chance.  There is a 'dog park' nearby full of sand and burrs and she comes away filthy every time. HOwever, it is no bigger than our fenced yard. 

We are attending a class and have learned an "emergency recall" but she knows when I don't have treats right at hand (in an instance such as the door dashing) and would rather run wide scoot loops at full tilt than come to me.

I actually saw a copy of Dont' Shoot the Dog at the library, I will go pick it up this afternoon. 

She is just a stinker sometimes, and I was just venting at the moment- my heart was in my throat after cars dodging her zoomies...

I agree with what Jewlieee said.  You cannot have a dog off leash until the recall is s-o-l-i-d and you should not be using your emergency recall until it's solid either.  The best recall method I've used is Leslie Nelson's "Really Reliable Recall."   There's a DVD and a book - I suggest the DVD.  Try it and stick to the method.  If I can train a hound to come every time, you can train a Dane to do it:-)))

What kind of class are you in?  If it isn't positive, dump it.  This sounds like a dog that isn't having as much fun with you as she can without you.  You can change that!!!   She's NOT a stinker, she just doesn't get it, and is still untrained. 

For an example of stubborn (stinker) versus simply untrained:

This is what happens to dogs when they get labeled stubborn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8elc5Pk8fk

This is what happens to them when they are simply trained: http://www.dogstardaily.com/videos/home/stubborn

Not that you are treating your dog the way the first film indicates, but the mind set of calling the dog stubborn, or a stinker, even if accurate, is not productive to good training.  Just try thinking about it in terms of how to modify each behavior, and you will get to your goal quicker - I promise!

She is  stinker, I insist LOL. 

Her class is 100% positive, hands off, shaping, clicker.  I love love her teacher and Echo loves to figure out what thing she can do next to get a treat.  She is nearing level 3 after only 8 weeks.

Of course running gleefully through a neighborhood when you have just a small back yard and only leash walks is more fun than me.  Even I would enjoy that were I a dog :)

She is doing well. Kids make sure not to let her fly out the door and so far so good. 

spiritdogs

What kind of class are you in?  If it isn't positive, dump it. 

(emphasis added by me)

Anne, I respect your opinions, I really do. But, even if she isn't in a 100% purely positive training class (which would be OK, IMO) is doesn't make the trainer or class bad...you don't know the trainer or attend her classes, so you wouldn't know what's going on there.

And, BTW, she IS attending a positive training class (see her above post), and from what I gather enjoying it but not seeing results (Echo is a runner and food stealer, correct?). So, what do you have to say about this? Stick with it even though...

spiritdogs

This sounds like a dog that isn't having as much fun with you as she can without you. 

Dump the positive class? Stick with it? Find a new class?