Agility - What methods do you follow?

 I teach agility classes for our club and our Intro class does both obstacle work and handling.  If I thought I could fill classes with "foundation agility" as the title and they never saw obstacles, then I'd do it.  People take agility to get on the obstacles.  It's a sad fact and one I can't change.  So I do obstacles and handling.  Each week gets a different handling piece added in.  I don't do any sequencing in the Intro class at all unless it's tunnel to table, otherwise it's all one obstacle at a time and we start out slow.  Squished tunnel, low dog walk, low aframe, chute with the fabric held open or scrunched up.  We progress as the dogs get comfortable.I also don't do a lot of jumping.  People know their dogs can jump but I want them to teach their dogs to jump round and frankly, I don't want to spend time on it in the Intro class when 80 percent of them I will never see again.  Just like I don't spend a ton of time on the teeter and we don't touch the weaves at all.

This year I think I'm going to be a little more strict about the level of training for each dog though.  Last year I let a few people slide where the dog could barely walk on leash and I'm not going to do that again.  It takes too much of my time in class trying to motivate such dogs, so they will be refunded their money and asked to take obedience first.

It's funny, but the people that really know foundation is important, do all that themselves before even taking a class.  

tashakota

People take agility to get on the obstacles.  It's a sad fact and one I can't change.

 

I understand your position from a trainer standpoint but look at it from JQP dog owner's standpoint.  I have no interest in competing in agility now or ever.  I ran retrievers in Hunt Tests for many years and I am done with traveling and chasing ribbons.  I love that people are competetive with their dogs in any venue but it's not for me anymore.    When I have taken a beginner's agility class at the only semi convenient place I got the feeling that it was "give us your money but you are wasting our time".  These people (trainers) are heavily into agility and that's fine but for many of us in the classes, it's a chance to introduce our dogs to a fun activity and socialize them to different people, dogs and things.  Some may get bitten by the competition bug and move on but most are just trying to have some fun with their dog.  We were often rushed through class because a more advanced class was waiting and the trainers were less than helpful with dogs and people who needed a little extra time. I am not accusing you of doing this but just pointing out what happened at this training center and how it made me and others feel.

I trained retrievers for years, mine and dogs that were not mine. I tried to be patient with everyone because I was taking their money and they deserved my best, even if I would never see them again.  I totally understand your frustration with dogs that don't have the basic obedience because that is wasted time for everyone.  As far as newbies wanting to work on the equipment, well of course they do, that's what they see on TV and at dog shows and it's fun.

I am not criticizing you or any trainer who feels the way you do, I understand.  I've been in your shoes but for all of us who just like to "play" at stuff with our dogs, lets us have our fun. 

I am not criticizing you or any trainer who feels the way you do, I understand.  I've been in your shoes but for all of us who just like to "play" at stuff with our dogs, lets us have our fun. 

the dogs suffer terribly from owners who come in with this attitude. If the dogs don't have the foundation training they don't have any fun and are in danger of getting seriously injured. Our club tried at one point to cater to people with this attitude with a special class and we had to stop after observing stressed terrified dog after stressed terrified confused dog after stressed terrified injured dog. I don't understand owners who aren't willing to take a foundation class; I always thought foundation or puppy agility or whatever they call it is the funniest thing one can do with a dog. I suppose some instructors don't know how to teach foundation in a fun way though; ours uses tons of "props" so the owners are indeed getting the dogs onto equipment, in a safe way, and both dog and owner have a blast while laying down valuable skills.

mudpuppy

I am not criticizing you or any trainer who feels the way you do, I understand.  I've been in your shoes but for all of us who just like to "play" at stuff with our dogs, lets us have our fun. 

the dogs suffer terribly from owners who come in with this attitude. If the dogs don't have the foundation training they don't have any fun and are in danger of getting seriously injured. Our club tried at one point to cater to people with this attitude with a special class and we had to stop after observing stressed terrified dog after stressed terrified confused dog after stressed terrified injured dog. I don't understand owners who aren't willing to take a foundation class; I always thought foundation or puppy agility or whatever they call it is the funniest thing one can do with a dog. I suppose some instructors don't know how to teach foundation in a fun way though; ours uses tons of "props" so the owners are indeed getting the dogs onto equipment, in a safe way, and both dog and owner have a blast while laying down valuable skills.

Wow, I never saw any dogs suffering in the way you describe but I'm sure you have seen many, many more agility classes than I have.  It's strange that training centers would allow this, seeing as it's so incredibly dangerous. The trainers stressed safety at all times. I guess I just got lucky that none of the dogs I have taken thru the beginner's class have suffered any injury or become terrified or in fact any of the other dogs who attended.  There was an afghan hound who didn't want to enter the tunnel and the instructor got inpatient and "forced" the dog through but that seemed like the instructor's fault but I guess it was the owner's fault for joining the class. I don't let any "trainer" force my dogs to do anything, ever. As far as the dogs not having any fun because they didn't have the foundation training, I guess they just "thought" they were having fun.  I would love to attend a fun foundation class but there aren't any around here.   I cant imagine what was going on in the classes you describe with all the terrified, stressed dogs but it's a good thing you guys stopped those classes.

 

Our intro class goes into obstacles, but we have age requirements, the dog must be OK'd for agility by a vet.  Even my dog who is 5 years old and has competed jumps about 12" in training (she is 20" for competition).  Coke is like 26" at the withers so he'd be a 24" but when he did agility he was jumping 8" or 12" for starters.  Actually he has never jumped his full height.  Our A-frame is built so it's at a far more open angle and our dog walk is very low.  When I first competed with Kenya I was nervous b/c she had never been on a full height A-frame or dog walk before.  The green and/or young dogs never weave or teeter.  Tunnels and chutes start all scrunched up and the bottom edge of the tire is basically touching the ground.  Any "dangerous" element or injury is just a fluke accident.  I've never seen a dog even come close to getting hurt and the only major mistakes I've seen are when the handler does exactly what the instructor has said NOT to do.  I've only seen one dog really scared of something, it was a toy poodle and her owner slipped on the mud and fell on the tunnel as the dog was going in.  Total fluke accident.  The dog was nervous of the tunnel but they backed up to scrunching it up and did a few with LOTS of praise and treats and then she was fine (the owner twisted her ankle).

Hi Kim, my methods have been really similar to yours.

Basically all I work her on are the foundations (tippy board, ladders, hind end awareness, front crosses, back crosses, etc.). Our goal is competition, so it's really important to me that she is solid. The only obsticles we've named thus far are tunnel and table. When I say "table", Luna runs to the table, gets on the table, turns to face me and is lying down. (my default is a down since that is usually harder to get in competition.) So, we don't name anything until we have a finished behavior. My new thing is asking for two on two off contacts when she goes down the stairs.

For crosses, I send her through a tunnel and hang back so she has to "find me". I don't call her name, I wait for her to turn, then C/T. That kind of thing.

I don't use luring at all, because I want Luna to move at a speed she is comfortable with, and not push her too hard. I am lucky that she is a go-getter dog.

When we introduced the dog walk I did litter it with treats as she went, but she was up there and trotting across on her own, basically finding yummy surprises in the process. (She'd also done lots of board on the floor work, and low board work before seeing the dog walk with a few feet of air under it, and we still don't have it up to full height.)

All-in-all, I find that the obsticles are easy when the foundation work is strong. Once she has the obstacles we'll start asking for more complex sequences.

ETA: The teeter and weaves were the first pieces of equipment I bought because of how hard they are and how long they take to train. My instructor shared that with me and I am eternally grateful! For the teeter, Luna's job is to bang the wazoo out of the high end (not all the way up), so that smacking noise is a good thing and part of the game. She hasn't been all the way across it because I bought it in the fall, but this spring I intend to teach her be a teetering fool! LOL

For crosses, I send her through a tunnel and hang back so she has to "find me". I don't call her name, I wait for her to turn, then C/T. That kind of thing.

I'm curious to know your reasoning behind this.  I don't find this sort of training to be very productive to the dog's future tunnel performances on course.  It would be more productive to teach the dog cues for right, left & tight turns, as well as continuing forward in a straight line.  To stand there and do nothing as the dog exits the tunnel is just confusing to them, as they look for you to give them their next cue.

When the dog is in the tunnel, I always vocalize which side I am on -- *especially* when I do a rear cross at the entrance and expect them to turn in the new direction when they come out.  Even if we are continuing in the same general direction, I tend to throw out a "good" or "let's go" to let the dog know where I am.  They're running blind in the tunnels and deserve a cue as to what's coming up next.  When you DON'T cue when they're in the tunnel, that's when you end up with dogs who spin when they come out.

Sorry if that was confusing. It's just a back-cross foundation game to get her looking for me. We play this game with a lot of obsticles. Starting with a jump is the easiest, so they can see you and then moving up to a tunnel or other "blind" situations.I want her checking in with me and learning a wide variety of exit patterns from the tunnel and that where I am is the cue for where we are going next.

 I'd prefer not to have cues for left, right and other directionals (although I know that works well for lots of folks). Ideally, I'd like to be able to run her silently.

The other aspect of this game that is good for Luna, is the fact that she has to focus and think about what cue she gets next. Otherwise, she'd be running like a bat out of hell over anything in front of her, so we spend a lot of time on focusing and self-control games, so she is taking the obstacle I've told her to, not acting on the impulse to fly over the jump that may be in front of the tunnel, but isn't the next obstacle. (Umm, Aussie much?)

As for tunnel performance, we work on that with other exercises, so I am not c/t for tunnel performances, but what comes after.

 Hope that helps!

Wow, I never saw any dogs suffering in the way you describe but I'm sure you have seen many, many more agility classes than I have.  It's strange that training centers would allow this, seeing as it's so incredibly dangerous. The trainers stressed safety at all times. I guess I just got lucky that none of the dogs I have taken thru the beginner's class have suffered any injury or become terrified or in fact any of the other dogs who attended. 

One of the most common scenarios was the team would happily make it through beginner class, then try to move up into the more advanced classes, and the team would totally fall apart due to the lack of basic foundation training. The handler would blame the dog, the dog would exhibit more and more signs of stress, and often they would eventually quit out of frustration. One of the most common manifestations of stress in a dog who has been rushed into agility without the foundation training is the "zoomies" or the "sniffies" or taking the "wrong" obstacles or barking at the handler. People usually blame lack of obedience for these behaviors, but it's not, they are usually signs of severe stress in a very confused dog who isn't having any fun. Dogs who haven't had hind-end-awareness work in a foundation class are in grave danger of getting injured on the dogwalk and teeter, and often compensate by taking these obstacles slowly. Dogs who are terrified on the teeter due to being rushed are very common.  Dogs who stop on top of the A-frame and just stand there often get a laugh but that is also a sign of an unhappy dog. Excessive panting, blank look in the eyes, moving slowly, all signs of stress.

MP, what you are now taking the time to explain, makes perfect sense.  Your previous post gave a very different impression, at least to me.  I will probably never have the chance or even the desire to take a class that focuses on the foundation but I can see the value in doing so.  If a person doesn't know any better and they get off to a bad start, it's like most things with dogs, it takes longer to correct a problem you have created through ignorance than to do it right, the first time. 

OK, everyone can return to the regularly scheduled discussion of agility methods. :)  I'll just watch from the sidelines. lol

JackieG

tashakota

People take agility to get on the obstacles.  It's a sad fact and one I can't change.

 

I understand your position from a trainer standpoint but look at it from JQP dog owner's standpoint.  I have no interest in competing in agility now or ever.  I ran retrievers in Hunt Tests for many years and I am done with traveling and chasing ribbons.  I love that people are competetive with their dogs in any venue but it's not for me anymore.    When I have taken a beginner's agility class at the only semi convenient place I got the feeling that it was "give us your money but you are wasting our time".  These people (trainers) are heavily into agility and that's fine but for many of us in the classes, it's a chance to introduce our dogs to a fun activity and socialize them to different people, dogs and things.  Some may get bitten by the competition bug and move on but most are just trying to have some fun with their dog.  We were often rushed through class because a more advanced class was waiting and the trainers were less than helpful with dogs and people who needed a little extra time. I am not accusing you of doing this but just pointing out what happened at this training center and how it made me and others feel.

I trained retrievers for years, mine and dogs that were not mine. I tried to be patient with everyone because I was taking their money and they deserved my best, even if I would never see them again.  I totally understand your frustration with dogs that don't have the basic obedience because that is wasted time for everyone.  As far as newbies wanting to work on the equipment, well of course they do, that's what they see on TV and at dog shows and it's fun.

I am not criticizing you or any trainer who feels the way you do, I understand.  I've been in your shoes but for all of us who just like to "play" at stuff with our dogs, lets us have our fun. 

 

 Oh I do look at it from JQP's standpoint. I guess you could call my Intro class a kind of foundation class.  I give people all the skills they need to be moderately successful if they continue on, but they still get to play on obstacles.  I don't let people force their dogs, I make owners go at the dog's pace, not what the owner thinks.

I was not being disparaging by saying I would never see them again.  That is just simply a fact.  I do my best to encourage and give them the skills they need.  I do my best to work to each individual dog's strengths.  If a dog is racing across the board that is suspended off the ground by 10 inches, I can tell if the dog is having fun or is stressed about the whole thing.  I've had dogs that wouldn't take food the first class, that was happily jumping through tires by the end of six weeks because we took it slow and encouraged them.  I try to teach people the difference between luring, begging and rewarding.  I give them skills to practice at home but there is only so much I can teach them in a one hour class.  I would love for them ALL to continue on because then the club grows and that helps us all, but they just don't.  Not to mention that our 6 week class is only $50 so it's certainly not a "give me your money" type of thing.  I wouldn't teach for the club for free if all I wanted was their money.

The fact is that people want to do what I do with my dogs in competition, but I've been working my dogs for 5 years now in agility.  Most people can't get that overnight and I certainly don't want them to think they can for the reasons that mudpuppy said.  The local place in town that first introduced me to the idea of agility, their idea of training the aframe was to drag the dog up and over by the collar.  NOT IN MY CLASS!!  It was that first experience that made me go searching for a place where folks actually competed and why I traveled an hour each way for classes.  I knew there had to be a better way.

The people that don't "need" foundation classes are usually, ime, people that have already titled a dog or two and they know what they need to teach their dog, so they don't need anyone to teach them.  I too would like to take a foundation class from an experienced instructor, sadly there are not many in this area that will teach one and that's because you can't fill them.  For some places, filling classes IS important because they have bills to pay.  I'm lucky in that I started the club I teach for and it's in my backyard.  Some day I would love to be able to have the club rent a building so we could practice regardless of the weather.  Right now it's summer only and just on dry days.  The bigger we get, the more that chance increases, as well as hopefully attracting other instructors.

So, sorry for the rant but I was not being disparaging, just factual.  

 

  I was the one having a little rant and you are all right about a good foundation class being important.  I didn't think it through well and my mouth beat my brain to the keyboard.