Loose leash walking with a clicker

oranges81

Am I doing the right thing by waiting her out when she throws a fit?

Hmm, tricky one.   Normally, with clicker training, if something doesn't work you lower your criteria.  So have you tried that - going back to the point where you just expect her to stop and look at you before moving on?

How does the walk start?  With my dogs, I look for a degree of calm and self restraint before I open the door and step outside with them.  I expect the same again while I lock up and we don't move off until they are in a nice position beside me. 

 Two things...

1.  I agree that there are things you shouldn't have to cue for, but I think this is an end goal.  Loose leash walking isn't something natural for a dog, it's something *we* want so we have to do a clear job of communicating what it is and for me that means cueing the start and releaseing when finished.  With Nikon, we start with him in a sit and I ask for eye contact "watch...", then I say "let's go!" and we're off.  When we are done, whether it be one turn or 10 steps or whatever, he receives his last reward and get's an "OK!" release word to indicate we are done. 

2.  What is the "environment" reward being used?  If it's being allowed more leash/freedom to roam and sniff, then I would definitely add in some cues for now otherwise she's getting conflicting information (being held back from doing what she wants, but then released to do what she wants).  Also I think the trick with using the clicker is finding some reward that can be given over and over and over in a matter of seconds because timing is so important.  I guess it depends on how you train but for me a click simply means "yes you did it right, here is a little reward" but does not end the behavior, so with Nikon I might keep walking and turning, clicking and treating every few steps and then when I'm finally done, heaps of praise and a release word.

 I think it would help to find a super high value food reward (liverwurst, or something) and use that, so she is able to understand what she is doing right. At the moment you are only clicking her for coming back to you and while that's part of the equation, she also needs clicks/rewards when she's LLW correctly.

 When I started LLW training with Luna (using a clicker), I clicked her all the time when the leash was loose. If the leash got tight, I stopped moving until she checked in with me, which means eye contact, then she got a C/T and off we'd go again.

Slowly we began increasing the criteria, so she was only getting clicked within a foot of my body, then only on the left hand side, then only when her ear was at my leg, then only when her ear was at my leg and she was looking up at me.

 LLW can be very hard for some dogs. It helps to work on it after then have had a chance to run and burn off steam too.
 

 I think you are moving too fast.  She isn't ready to do this outdoors, since she doesn't really know a cue that means "walk nicely on your lead next to me".  What I would do is to train the behavior at first indoors, in a non-distracting environment.  Add the cue, something like "let's go", or "with me".  Once the dog realizes that "let's go" means walk next to me, you can start moving to the next location.   I would lower my expectations when I first went outdoors - it really is more distracting, as you say.  So, I would C/T (and use something scrumptious, like liverwurst), for even a step or two next to my left leg.  It's easier to have the dog understand what you want him to do outdoors once he understands the cue words indoors.

 I use "Let's go" when I start the walk and for around the house when I want the dogs to move where I'm going.

She has to be calm and relaxed before I start moving   So I should go back a couple steps and keep C/T when she looks back at me for a while longer.

I'm still new to the shaping behavior type training.  I'll have to find something that Sandy loves more the sniffing. Lol. Which isn't much.

Liesje

2.  What is the "environment" reward being used?  If it's being allowed more leash/freedom to roam and sniff, then I would definitely add in some cues for now otherwise she's getting conflicting information (being held back from doing what she wants, but then released to do what she wants).  Also I think the trick with using the clicker is finding some reward that can be given over and over and over in a matter of seconds because timing is so important.  I guess it depends on how you train but for me a click simply means "yes you did it right, here is a little reward" but does not end the behavior, so with Nikon I might keep walking and turning, clicking and treating every few steps and then when I'm finally done, heaps of praise and a release word.

The reward is allowing her to sniff when she walks nicely to the spot she wants.  The click for me is "Yes that's it. here's a reward"  When we're finished I give a release word and praise, then we get out of the cold. Lol.

Does she really understand this reward?  Are you able to rapidly charge your clicker with this reward?  That's the important part, charging the marker.  When I start I just have a dog sitting in front of me and I say yes/treat yes/treat yes/treat about 10 times in 20 seconds so the dog understands that yes = reward, and then we put it to use.  I'm not saying it has to be food, but it's really hard if it's not.  I think if I were Sandy I wouldn't really be understanding that the click and the sniffing go together, especially if sniffing is what I wanted in the first place, threw a five minute fit, obeyed for maybe 30 seconds, and then was released to sniff.

I use sniffing as a reward sort of like freedom in the house - it's something they earn more of as they go along and progress with training and manners.  For starters I want to set them up for success and not immediately work in an environment that is more rewarding than the reward, if that makes sense.  For Sandy that probably means a reall interesting environment with so many new scents.  For Nikon, that means not using Cheerios for treats while throwing beef liver all over the floor, or asking him to tug on a rag when someone else is whipping around a flirt pole within reach.  I think for starters the reward needs to be something better than what the dog wants, not the same as what the dog wants.  After she is coming along with the LLW and can start and stop it on cue, reward overall with periods of sniffing, sort of like the "jackpot" rather than a reward that follows each click.

oranges81

 I'll have to find something that Sandy loves more the sniffing. Lol. Which isn't much.

Or start in less distracting environments so the sniffing isn't a factor yet.  I think it's too much too soon to expect her to LLW outside when she doesn't fully grasp what it is and so desperately wants to sniff.

Liesje

oranges81

 I'll have to find something that Sandy loves more the sniffing. Lol. Which isn't much.

 

Or start in less distracting environments so the sniffing isn't a factor yet.  I think it's too much too soon to expect her to LLW outside when she doesn't fully grasp what it is and so desperately wants to sniff.

Understandable but when the least distracting (at least to me) room in the house is still to distracting to Sandy with her nose, then what? Lol.

I'm gonna be picking up a small thing of liverwurst tomorrow if I can find it at the grocery store. Hopefully that will help.

Liesje

Does she really understand this reward?  Are you able to rapidly charge your clicker with this reward?  That's the important part, charging the marker.  When I start I just have a dog sitting in front of me and I say yes/treat yes/treat yes/treat about 10 times in 20 seconds so the dog understands that yes = reward, and then we put it to use.  I'm not saying it has to be food, but it's really hard if it's not.  I think if I were Sandy I wouldn't really be understanding that the click and the sniffing go together, especially if sniffing is what I wanted in the first place, threw a five minute fit, obeyed for maybe 30 seconds, and then was released to sniff.

I use sniffing as a reward sort of like freedom in the house - it's something they earn more of as they go along and progress with training and manners.  For starters I want to set them up for success and not immediately work in an environment that is more rewarding than the reward, if that makes sense.  For Sandy that probably means a reall interesting environment with so many new scents.  For Nikon, that means not using Cheerios for treats while throwing beef liver all over the floor, or asking him to tug on a rag when someone else is whipping around a flirt pole within reach.  I think for starters the reward needs to be something better than what the dog wants, not the same as what the dog wants.  After she is coming along with the LLW and can start and stop it on cue, reward overall with periods of sniffing, sort of like the "jackpot" rather than a reward that follows each click.

AH! That might be what I'm doing wrong.. I'm transitioning Maze's rewards to Sandy and she doesn't understand. See I knew there was a reason I loved this place! Lol.

I think before the training begins the dog needs an understanding of the marker and the reward.  I like to do rapid-fire "charges", and then once I see that when the mark is given, the dog anticipates the reward, I'm satisfied.  When first starting, the mark/reward should be charged again like 10 times or so.

So, when I use your method with Nikon....he is walking along, forgets LLW and goes ahead, I make myself a tree, he hits the end of the line and pulls for a few seconds, then the second he turns and looks back at me I "yes!" and since he knows yes = treat he comes in, grabs his treat, and off we go.  I also make sure to mark and reward while he is walking good, because I don't want him to think that the only way to earn the reward is to disobey and then obey again, if that makes sense (like when I was first teaching "kennel" he thought he could earn more treats by running into the kennel, getting his treat, then running back out of the kennel and back in again, lol.  Now he knows that "kennel" means he goes in, downs, and will earn treats every few seconds for staying in the kennel until I release him).

 I've charged the clicker to the point even when Sandy sees it, she starts offering behaviors. Not much yet but it's a start.  When we're walking and she's LLW I tell her "Yes, Good girl" and give her a pat on the head and continue on. I'm still looking for the all mighty treat for Sandy. Lol.

 Maze did that excat same thing as Nikon when it came to crate training! Lol. 

Liesje

I also make sure to mark and reward while he is walking good, because I don't want him to think that the only way to earn the reward is to disobey and then obey again, if that makes sense

This is the most important bit IMO.  This is like teaching the dog not to chew the couch or not to chase the cat.  It's no good rewarding them for STOPPING chewing, because they then chew, and stop, and look at you for the reward.  You have to reward for not-chewing so they persistently avoid chewing in hopes of a reward.

What I did with our last pup was just to make the walk like a training session.  It puts you in a different frame of mind and the dog picks up on this.  Ever seen dogs that Heel beautifully in class, then tow their owners out to the car?!

It went a bit like this:  First, we practised the "walk next to me" behaviour in the house with no lead, no distractions and no cue.

Next, I added the lead and let it drag along the floor.  Then I picked it up but put it in my pocket and finally held it, practising - not only firing treats and praise for not-pulling-but-walking-with-me, but ALSO holding the lead as lightly as possible in my hand. It takes TWO to pull.

Next, I added my cue ("Let's go!" which was later phased out and replaced by, if you like, the "visual cue" of me being on the other end of the lead).

Next, I carried on practising the "walk next to me" but just happened to go to the front door, ending in a nice calm sit and look-at-me, then JACKPOT!  End of that session.

Next session, I did the same thing, this time not jackpotting until we repeated the calm sit and check in with me outside the front door.

Next session we did the same, but went a little further down the street.  Any time she got worked up, we turned back and worked our way back to the door again.  It didn't matter how far we went at this stage.... the mental stuff was pretty exhausting anyhow.  Sniffing kinda... evolved.... over a period of a few days.   I kept the treats on me at first, to whip out and  use when there was a handy distraction.  When we saw a cat, bird, squirrel, dog, person, horse, truck, bicycle - in fact, anything novel that could be viewed as a "distraction", I got those treats out and had her "sit" for them while the distraction was at a fairly "safe" distance.  To this day, she auto sits and glances at me when she sees a cat.

Next time I get a dog I think I will do the same, but maybe combine it with the Silky Leash method.... so I will still practise "walk with me" off lead with treats and lead dragging on the floor with treats, but ALSO teach that pressure on the lead is an actual cue (to move in the direction of that pressure), not just "what happens when you get to the end of the lead".