Changes to Nutro

That is interesting. Though it might be moot for me, having just switched my dog to Eagle Pack from Nutro. I had been feeding him Large Breed Adult Lamb Meal and Rice and they no longer make that formula. And I want his food to have a meat meal first. Anyway, this new formula for the regular feed looks like they've put watery meat first and then some meat meal down the road, as well as the veggie protein. I know dogs are omnivores, not only in the observed behavior but it some of the needs, so in dog food, there's going to be some vegetable matter but meat should always be prevalent. Also, if this new formula is going to have to meat sources (meat and meat meal) then why did they claim a shortage of ingredients? I think that was a smokescreen and that they are changing formulas, not because it's better for the dogs but because it is better for the bottom line.

I hope they plan to drop their price in accordance with their drop in quality. Dogs are biologically carnivores; horses are biologically herbivores; and people are biologically omnivores; and all of these species have in common that one can keep them alive on cheap seed-based (grains) diets suited only for seed-eaters like some species of birds. Doesn't mean it's healthy or good, or promotes a long healthy life, just that it's cheap and they are alive now. Omnivority is not the same thing as seed-eater. When farming went big-time early in human history human health plummented. They could keep more of them alive due to cheap seed-based calories but much sicker in general due to the inappropriate diet.

One of the things I heard about shortages at Nutro was that the person who normally secures the contracts for lamb supply didn't get those contracts and no longer works for the company. Yet, this formula change, which obviously incorporates a different formula involving lamb makes me think they are still getting lamb but getting lamb meat is cheaper than paying for the meal, which would have included the cost of making a meal. And, with meal lower on the list, that means they don't have to include as much of it, since the list is by weight present.

OTOH, I have also found out that though Eagle Pack did get sold, it is still privately owned and the formulas have not changed as a result of that.

BTW, I have switched Jade to Eagle Pack to try that out. She's been throwing up here and and trying another food seems like a logical place to start. She was eating Nutro Indoor Cat.

I think Nutro, now owned by Mars, is being managed for the bottom dollar. I'm a fan of free enterprise and minimize cost and maximize production and show a profit. And if a company changes a food and loses sales, oh well. The pressure of the consumer market will show that it was a mistake for them to do so. Some people have to learn the hard way.

Eagle Pack is more expensive. And I will glady pay their price as long as the food remains what it needs to be. That way, EP can still earn a profit and we can still get the food Shadow needs. Sometimes, you get what you pay for.

Yeah. Nutro is changing for the worse, however to be honest it really wasn't that good of a food to begin with. Although you can't ever have a primarily lamb high protein diet because of the amount of ash that comes with lamb (they have large bones),

Uh, nooooo, not really.  Their bones are pretty much the same as any other ruminant.  In fact their bones are not as dense as large ruminant bones or even goat bones, which are similar size.

If there's bone in the kibble, it has to say bone.  Meat ash levels depend on the mineral quantity in the meat.  Lamb meat has one of the most complete mineral profiles of any common meat (I think venison may be #1).  It's perfectly safe to feed regularly in a properly balanced diet. 

brookcove

Yeah. Nutro is changing for the worse, however to be honest it really wasn't that good of a food to begin with. Although you can't ever have a primarily lamb high protein diet because of the amount of ash that comes with lamb (they have large bones),

Uh, nooooo, not really.  Their bones are pretty much the same as any other ruminant.  In fact their bones are not as dense as large ruminant bones or even goat bones, which are similar size.

If there's bone in the kibble, it has to say bone.  Meat ash levels depend on the mineral quantity in the meat.  Lamb meat has one of the most complete mineral profiles of any common meat (I think venison may be #1).  It's perfectly safe to feed regularly in a properly balanced diet. 

 x2

 Lamb doesn't have more "ash" because of "bigger bones."  Don't forget bone size and muscle size are directly correlated.  Chickens have small bones, but they also have small muscles   Alot of times "Lamb" formulas are lower in protein because they don't use as much due to the expense. 
 

I got the idea that meat meal is going to be more expensive than just the meat because it's one more step in processing, which must be paid for. Example, brisket cuts of meat are usually available in two versions. Packer trim, the cheaper, because they just cut off a section from the brisket area of the cow and shrink-wrap it. Market trim involves a skilled butcher cutting off the fat, which is one more step before sale and is more expensive.

Notice that, in the new formula, the meat meal is after the grains. Which means they don't have to use as much of it. I guess it's suppose to have the same protein profile as the previous formula but I'm not sure how that would work. Also, it's one thing to say that so many pounds of meat were used but by the time cooking removes some moisture (so they can come out with the consistent moisture of 10 percent or so) how dense is that meat source, now? More importantly, I guess, how does that work out in an as-fed basis? I'm pretty sure that as-fed is different from as-fed-into-the-grinder.

 Meat meal is more dense.  Plainly speaking: one gram of meat meal contains more actual "meat" than one gram of just meat.  Thus, yes, meat meal is a more expensive product - as you say there is some processing involved, but mostly because you are purchasing more product pound for pound.

Once it's in the kibble, the further processing removes more moisture as you say.  There is not much moisture in the meal to remove so meal goes through that process almost unchanged in terms of non-water nutrients provided.  Meat, on the other hand - well, slice some chicken, weigh it, and put it in the oven on low for about four hours.  Then weigh it again.  You'll see you have lost a lot of weight.

But the food company gets to list ingredients by weight BEFORE the cooking process.  So if you see "whole" ingredients that normally are "squishy", listed first - you have to mentally bump them down the list to account for the water weight they lose when the product is cooked.  If it's the only meat source be very concerned.  Particularly if another protein source is listed, like "corn gluten meal" or soybean meal.

The exception would be something like this:  Beef, bison, venison, lamb, fish.  Even though it's all whole meats, there's still very likely to be plenty of meat-based protein there to be a properly carnivorous formula (carnivorous meaning the protein is mostly meat derived, not meaning, 100% animal-based diet).

Remember however that all this is pretty much a guess.  The food companies force us to do that.  Some will actually tell you, if you ask, how much protein comes from the meat.  I'd lay good money that Nutro would not, or would give one a song and dance.