Practice trial, Light sheep vs. heavy sheep, and Humiliation

    • Gold Top Dog

    Practice trial, Light sheep vs. heavy sheep, and Humiliation

    What a difference sheep can make.

    I normally train at a farm with pretty heavy sheep. They stick to me like glue for the most part and are pretty slow moving. Neiko does really well with them. He works pretty calmly, no barking, will listen to my commands and such. However, we have only been doing the small round training pen up until now.

    I started to take him to another farm to work every now and again just so we can experience different settings, sheep, etc.

    Well last night was our night at the other farm. With light sheep. TEN (vs. 3) Very light sheep. In the large pen. What a disaster!

    Our goal last night was to test him in the large pen and attempt the requirements of the Junior Herding Dog test in AHBA trials.

    Yeah, I don't think we're ready for that quite yet! ;)

    First, I made the mistake of letting him watch another dog work. Watching another dog work sheep = waaaaayyyyyyyy too stimulating.

    When it was our turn, I walked him - more like he yanked me - in to the field. I put him in a down stay and removed his leash. Zooooom! He was off. Stay? What Stay? Apparently, he forgot what Stay means.

    He reverted back to newbie herding dog 101 with barking and off balance circling. Clockwise, clockwise, clockwise, clockwise - split one sheep off and chase it - clockwise, clockwise, clockwise. ugh. I was getting dizzy.

    We would not listen to my get backs and lie downs or my stand commands. He heard me, and glanced at me but he was a dog on a mission. It was almost like he couldn't help himself. He knew he should obey, but his instincts told him to circle and gather the sheep and he couldn't stop.

    I decided to try to work with it rather than fight it and started walking around the pen.......yeah - walking didn't cut it. I had to RUN to keep from getting bowled over by these sheep. They were so light that they FLEW around the field and forget me. If I was in the way, that was my own darn problem. I got trampled a number of times. thankfully I never fell but there were many close calls! At one point I threw up my hands and yelled HELP! to which my trainer yelled back "KEEP MOVING!" ha. Thanks for that.

    Eventually though, Neiko calmed down and I was able to walk/run the sheep through the course. By the 3rd attempt Neiko seemed to get the object of the game: Walk the sheep through the gates. At that point he started to work with me rather than for himself. It was REALLY nice to see that lightbulb moment go off in his head.

    After a few successful attempts the sheep revolted and made a bee line for the "escape" gate. Once they got in to that corner they refused to move. Neiko tried everything he could think of to get them to move out of the corner, but they were like a sheep boomerang. They would circle out then right back to the corner. Finally, Neiko just stopped and looked at me. The look on his face was so obvious "I tried and they won't move, mom!! What can I do?". Neiko is not a gripping type dog. I don't think that it ever even enters his head to bite or nip at other animals. It's just not in his nature - so I put him out of his misery and ended the session. He was pretty tired anyway after all that running.

    What chaos, but at least we got a few things out of the session: 1) Neiko finally understood that we are supposed to work together and he's not a one man show 2) experience working really light sheep in a large field.

    So, I don't know if I'm going to enter the trial or not. Tomorrow is our normal training session at our normal farm (and it's also the farm that the trial will be held at), but we are supposed to be in a frisbee competition instead. I may bow out of the frisbee thing and go herding to see how Neiko will do at our normal place in the big field.

     

    Edited to add Lily's experience: My regular trainer and I have just about given up on Lily. She has tons of instinct but she is so soft that any amount of correction from the trainer shuts her off. Her confidence has been increasing very slowly though so I thought I'd try to work her myself in the small pen with the light sheep. She was soooooooo excited. It was fun to see her enthusiasm. She ran to the gate and kept circling back to me as if trying to hurry me up. I let her in and she went to work moving the sheep around and keeping them together. She had one split but I corrected her and she went back to gathering. She didn't shut down at my changing her direction, in fact she seemed to take it in stride. The only time she showed nervousness was when I asked her to stop and lie down. She was not able to lie down but she did stop - almost. I blocked her movements and she got very unsure - giving me that little wiggle butt that she has when she's scared/unsure/etc. When she finally stopped and really looked at me though - and let me approach her, I gave her loads of praise and she just LIT up. She was beaming with pride. It was so cool. So, there's hope for her yet. I just need to keep her lessons very short (10 mins or less) and take baby steps, reinforcing the correct behavior.

    • Puppy
    I don't want to talk you into something you aren't ready for, but the sheep for a JHD test should be pretty heavy - PROBABLY more like what you've been doing most of your training with. But, sheep are not robots, and so even sheep that are normally pretty heavy can "take a notion" some days, or with some dogs, and suddenly become much lighter. Is your instructor familiar with the facility where the JHD test will be held? If so, I'd follow her advice. If you don't know anyone who is familiar with the facility, I'll just say that in my experience JHD sheep are pretty placid. As for humiliation.... Believe me, anyone who has exhibited in more than a handful of times has had at least one disastrous run. I've had many, but my all time "favorite" is one in which I gave the following commands: awaythankyou! The official time on the score sheet from the time my dog left the post until I got the panicked "thank you" out of my mouth was 3 seconds. Unfortunately our time on the field was considerably longer than that as I spent many agonizing minutes running around trying to catch my normally very biddable dog as he chased sheep the length of a nearly half mile long field and back. And ya know what - there were exhibitors there who managed to have worse runs than mine! As for your dog who won't take corrections, I agree that short lessons are your best strategy. But really, where I practice, 10 minutes is a long session. As dogs become more experienced they can handle more, especially as they begin to polish skills. But for a new young dog, just learning the skills, especially if she is easily discouraged, take an egg timer and set it for about 3 minutes. You don't have to quit at 3 minutes, but if you set it for 3 minutes, then you might actually quit after about 5 minutes which is probably about enough for a novice dog that is unsure of herself.
    • Gold Top Dog

     

    The official time on the score sheet from the time my dog left the post until I got the panicked "thank you" out of my mouth was 3 seconds. Unfortunately our time on the field was considerably longer than that as I spent many agonizing minutes running around trying to catch my normally very biddable dog as he chased sheep the length of a nearly half mile long field and back.

    LOL I can just picture it!  I'm sure that you can laugh about it now right? :)

    The trial is at the facility where I normally train. That is one advantage to me. The group giving the trial is renting my trainers farm for the trial. Maybe I will just go ahead and do it. You never know. 

    I was there this past Sat (in the rain no less) working in the field that the trial will be in. The down sides are that Neiko needs about 5 mins to get his excitement out then he finds balance and stays there. He also works so close that he will split off a corner sheep if we make a sharp turn. The good thing though is that we were actually able to do our very first re-pen! On our first try too no less. I was realllly happy about that!

    He has lost his lie down though. He won't lie down for nothing. He will stand/stay however so we'll just go with that for now.

    Do you have a reliable way to get a dog to lie down while working sheep? He was pretty good about it for a while but now he just refuses.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Do you have a reliable way to get a dog to lie down while working sheep? He was pretty good about it for a while but now he just refuses. 

    Rule number one of translating practice to trial.  Consider your dog's worst behavior during practice and that is going to represent exactly what he'll do during your runs in competition.  People forget that.  I forget that often. 

    I have a trial coming up Saturday and caught myself picturing my run, imagining the best runs I had at this place, and visualizing Ted doing that.  *insert buzzer noise here* 

    I forget that he usually starts a practice session there with a lovely up-the-middle "outrun" (incorrect in BC trials), and needs 5392 corrections to bring the sheep at a good pace.  And his off-balance flanks still suck, so trying to keep these sheep on line, and penning (free standing pen) is going to be agonizing.  Did I mention some of the sheep are new, from a different flock that's hardly been worked by dogs other than the owner's?

    Anyway, consider when you say, "pretty good" when describing his stop.  What you need to do is have a clear idea of what you want from the stop, and work to that, and then don't take no for an answer.  I don't mean hammer on your dog if he doesn't do it.  I mean, consider a refusal as a sign that your dog is telling you that what you asked was too hard.  You have to go make that simpler, so he'll obey you on the stop.

    First, what kind of stop is a real stop for you?  I need a dog to lie down by default.  It's easier to train the full stop lying down, then go back and get variations on that, than it is to accept a stop that represents putting more pressure on, and then ask the dog later to "let go" of the sheep more.  I feel it's important for the dog to know right from the start that they aren't losing control when they let up pressure completely. 

    To enforce the stop, go back to the situation that he stops easiest in.  For most dogs, that's school sheep who behave, a small pen, sheep facing a fence, and the dog merely controlling left and right escape routes.  Maybe even a corner for a dog that hasn't learned to use eye yet (even so-called "upright" dogs have to learn to use some eye to work stock at higher levels - for instance, it's eye that allows a dog to stand his ground in a corner, and keep the sheep out, while still cutting off their escape left and right to physically move him out of the corner).

    Bring the sheep up, and reinforce that stop means stop to whatever extent you intend.  Give some quick, calm praise for compliance and let the dog "have" the sheep again.  Do this over and over.

    Next step up the difficulty.  Have the dog stop the sheep while in the center of the ring, and ask for the stop on balance.  Rinse, repeat.

    Next, same sheep, bigger field, go back to the fence.  If you had to start in a corner before, go back to the corner.  Then do it on the straight fence.  Then a little ways away from the fence so that you and the dog only have to cover one side.  Then further away.  Always ask for that full stop and if the dog refuses, immediately go back to the previous level.

    This is so important.  If you've got a stop at your level, you've got the world.  Think how easy it would have been to be able to stop your dog, let the sheep settle, and "reset to zero." 

    Even when sheep are being stupid, if your dog doesn't get sucked into the madness and make it worse, no one can blame you.  Not that people often lay blame anyway, but it makes a tough run much better if you come out and people surround you and say, "Tough luck!  Those sheep!  Nothing you could have done, your dog did everything he could have." 

    Being able to stop your dog can let you see where to help your dog, like when the sheep were in the corner - they were seriously taking advantage of your dog's inexperience there - he needed to stop in the corner and hold them out, but probably they pulled him out to their heads each time (been there, done that - got a t-shirt if you want it!).  In BC trialing a similar thing happens at the freestanding pen.  Savvy sheep can go around the pen, and a young dog races around to head them, but comes in too tight and actually pushes the sheep faster.  The dog has to learn to actually slow down, widen out, catch the sheep's eye and turn them from a distance.

    Good luck!  Try this for humiliation.  There's this guy who started way after I did.  He's now working at the highest level with a dog I helped him start.  I'm way behind him now because I had the bad car accident and then got busy with the farm and kids.  So now I''m starting over again with a young dog.  All these years, for some reason, anytime this guy is around, my dog (and this has happened with ever dog I've owned) turns into Jaws and goes on a slash-and-burn rampage every time I try to work him or her.

    You might think this is one of those self-fulfilling prophecies - it's happened so much that I lose my nerve when he's around.  But, last time it happened I didn't even know he was there.  I came back from catching my insane dog, and there he was!  And my instructor was going, "What the h__ was that?!!?  He was doing fine just a second ago!"  I swear I didn't know he was there.

    So, since this guy is going to be at the trial this weekend, I can give y'all a preview of how it will go.  Ted will run straight up the middle and grab one, then ride it straight up to the setout pen, catch sight of those sheep and jump in.  By the time I get up there (it's a 300 yard run up from the handler's post), three setout crew people will be working to catch Ted as he runs circles around all the sheep that haven't run yet (making them good and riled up for those who will be running after me).

    Since Ted never behaves like this when this one guy isn't around, I can't do anything to prevent it.  I'll be sure to get hubby to catch it on video so that whatever happens at your trial, it will be nothing compared to my run!

    I do have videographic evidence, however, that we are fully capable of completing this course.  I'll have to post that first.  LOL 

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    Rule number one of translating practice to trial.  Consider your dog's worst behavior during practice and that is going to represent exactly what he'll do during your runs in competition.  People forget that.  I forget that often. 

    I have a trial coming up Saturday and caught myself picturing my run, imagining the best runs I had at this place, and visualizing Ted doing that.  *insert buzzer noise here* 

    I forget that he usually starts a practice session there with a lovely up-the-middle "outrun" (incorrect in BC trials), and needs 5392 corrections to bring the sheep at a good pace.  And his off-balance flanks still suck, so trying to keep these sheep on line, and penning (free standing pen) is going to be agonizing.  Did I mention some of the sheep are new, from a different flock that's hardly been worked by dogs other than the owner's?

    ha, you make a great point. I am picturing Neiko holding his stay, before the outrun, coming in on a wide arc - instead of bee lining for the center and then walking with me on balance through all the gates nicely. haha. That isn't going to happen.

    What I would really like to get out of this trial is some experience and meet others in the same boat. I still haven't filled out the premium. I plan on going and checking things out first then putting our name in the hat if I feel confident enough.

    You are right though. I need to go back to the small pen and work on his lie downs.

    Good luck on your trial this weekend.

    • Gold Top Dog

    The point I forgot to make is that even though your dog's worst behavior is what will happen during your trial run, your goal should then be to raise your dog's level of work so that his worst behavior is still acceptable. 

    Right now, Ted's first time on any sheep, he'll blow up the middle - but usually I can stop him if I'm ready, and then flank him again, and sometimes he'll take that and sometimes he'll still go pretty straight - but at least it will be a blow-by instead of a  full ten-pin strike with sheep scattering everywhere.  I can work with that.  One point outruns are still outruns.  Once Ted's on the other side, he turns into a good boy and listens nicely.  We think he gets scared when he's facing away from me, since we've done so little driving or distance work up to now.  And my sheep here run.

    Anyway, I can live with that so I'm going ahead and working this weekend.  I'll try to work on that outrun if I can, but it's not looking good so far - my foot's hurt from a sheep accident a week ago and bothers me after just a few minutes working. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    To enforce the stop, go back to the situation that he stops easiest in.  For most dogs, that's school sheep who behave, a small pen, sheep facing a fence, and the dog merely controlling left and right escape routes.  Maybe even a corner for a dog that hasn't learned to use eye yet (even so-called "upright" dogs have to learn to use some eye to work stock at higher levels - for instance, it's eye that allows a dog to stand his ground in a corner, and keep the sheep out, while still cutting off their escape left and right to physically move him out of the corner).

    Bring the sheep up, and reinforce that stop means stop to whatever extent you intend.  Give some quick, calm praise for compliance and let the dog "have" the sheep again.  Do this over and over.

    Next step up the difficulty.  Have the dog stop the sheep while in the center of the ring, and ask for the stop on balance.  Rinse, repeat.

    OK. I took your advice last night. Neiko and I went to the 2nd farm we train at (the flighty sheep place). I still worked him in the large pen but I went in with the goal of working on stops. I didn't let him go crazy for 5 mins either. I went right to work having him bring the sheep with me over to the far corner then I made him stop and hold them there. I did have sheep up my butt for the entire walk to the corner as he was putting too much pressure on, but I ignored that because at least he was in balance and I wanted him to see what I wanted out of him right away. The first stop, I just asked for a stand then let him go have the sheep back. Then I used the fence and walked to the other corner - asked for a stand and gave him the sheep back - rinse repeat for a while until I asked for a lie down and he did it. Then I inched away from the fence toward the center of the pen. I was not able to get a lie down in the center of the pen but he will lie down if we're on the fence. So, we'll get there. He had a lot more self control last night and towards the end of the session he was keeping the sheep behind me instead of using too much pressure so that the sheep would run through me (this is a huge step for us!). I started to use the "easy" command to get him to sloooooooow down. It seemed to work a little.

    So, thank you so much for your advice here. I hope that you guys don't mind if I continue to pick your brains about herding. Talking the stuff out really helps.

     

    As a side note, I also worked Lily last night and had a major break through! My trainer helped me find the exact amount of pressure that Lily will take before she shuts off vs. keeps working. Once I figured that out, it was amazing how she moved with me.  She did drive the sheep in to me at one point though and knocked me on my rear. It was bound to happen! :) Anyway, I feel like a big ball of stress has been lifted because I know that Lily really enjoys herding and I want to let her do it, but it has been very difficult to train her because she is so incredibly soft.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Jewliee you are LIGHT years ahead of us when it comes to working sheep !!  We do the novice and do very well at it....but just for the HIC.

    Your vivid desricptions really were exciting and fun !  I only wish I knew every term... I am guessing the Light vs heavy is weight??

    Please post more !!

    Bonita of Bwana

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    Bonita of Bwana

     I am guessing the Light vs heavy is weight??

    No, light sheep means that the sheep will run and move quickly and easily. These sheep will move at the slightest move or look from the dog

    Heavy sheep move more slowly and take a bit more effort from the dog to move them around. They also tend to stick to the handler or other sheep where as light sheep will want to flock, but they will also look for an escape route. So light sheep will split from the herd easier than heavy sheep will. I think of it as heavy sheep having concrete shoes and light sheep having nike airs :)

    I'm glad you enjoy my posts about our learning process!

    • Gold Top Dog

    You also can have heavy sheep that want to have nothing to do with the handler, and ALSO do not flock well.  The BC national finals and other large trials are typically run on such sheep.  They force the dog to work. very. hard.  If you look at pictures from these trials, you'll see the handler standing at the pen, for instance, hanging on the tippy tip of the rope, with the door open as wide as possible so the sheep don't feel crowded and turn on the dog.   Imagine a trial where the dog is allowed to bite sometimes because they are run on sheep that have no problem mashing your dog.

    These sheep are relatively easy to split up, but hard to keep together around the course.  They don't run at the drop of a hat, but when they take off they still have light feet and in addition do things like split in different directions and will run right over a dog. 

    Sheep like this come from large commercial operations that graze the open ranges.  You won't see them much at the AKC/AHBA/ASCA trials. 

    You can also have light sheep that are very dog broke.  These sheep are easy to move when separated from the safety of the handler, and do things like jump fences or race for a gate.  However, get them near a person and they turn into glue.  You find these kinds of sheep a lot at training facilities.

    I think of light and heavy as more of whether a sheep is inclined to think with its brain or its feet (ie, not think but simply react).  Heavy sheep tend to size up a dog pretty fast and get the better of them, whether they are fast movers or not.

    You're right, this is fun.  I'm hoping to post a little exercise I did today with Ted - I need to video it tomorrow.  I'll start a new thread for that.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I agree with Bonita, I am very much enjoying reading this thread.  I have attended a few trials held at our annual stockshow and rodeo and it is fascinating and so different than my experience has been with retriever training.  I have watched BC's work on ranches and that is fun too but that is more of a get 'er done type of thing. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     awww Neiko! lol

    human's just don't get it do they?! hahaha...

    my sister has a Blue heeler mix type dog that she uses on her farm to herd her cows. i suggested that she get her into agility and she laughed at me, saying she could never do it (i disagree, but hey)... reading your post i wonder if she'd be good for herding training. i mean it's something she's gonna do anywaze, and it would just help fine-tune her love for herding anywaze right?

    do you have a link for classes or a good book. we live in Canada, she lives in the Ottawa (Ontario) area.

    thanks for any help you can offer :)

    (PM me, if pos)