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Two Herding Training Techniques - Vids

Posted : 8/10/2008 7:35:50 PM

I posted this in Photos but I thought it would also interest trainers. Both videos are demonstrations of trying to achieve the same result (explained below). I thought it was interesting because one is very traditional and correction-based, and one is more holistic and positive.

The point in both of these is to get him to circle around and stop on voice cues alone, with no hint from me or the sheep as to what he's "supposed" to do. I'll do this the same way in both of these - there's no way to train this correctly other than simply R- (stopping him from working) or P+ (verbal correction).

But both videos also demonstrate techniques to get the dog to bring the sheep nicely and not chase them pell-mell.

The whole chain is dog circles behind sheep-->dog starts sheep moving-->dog pushes sheep towards you-->dog stops and keeps sheep near you. If the dog gets excited and pushes too hard, the sheep will run past you instead of stopping, then the dog will zoom around and have to catch them and bring them back - oh, hey, that's fun! So that will teach the dog to bring them even faster next time.

In the first one, I stop the dog, then correct the dog when he gets up and tries to get back into "chase" mode by speeding up. Then you "reward" the dog with a "nice" voice when he's correct (when the sheep are going nice and slow). You can see all of this starting about halfway through, until the end.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh0ZzcNWnWY[/url]

The second one starts with more circling practice, then I'm using another method to get Ted to slow down. This one is interesting because it involves backchaining. You strongly reinforce the desired end behavior, which is "settling" the sheep between you and the dog, with everyone relaxed and happy. To do this you stop the dog when the sheep are settled in front of you, then you just . . .wait. And say nice things to your dog. And make it clear that you are a team by ensuring that the sheep don't get away.

If the dog learns that his job is to have sheep happy and settled next to you, he will work towards that end instead. This worked like a charm on my task oriented Ted. Again, about halfway through you can see he's almost there, and then the last time it all looks very pretty.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsQsuzySC0Y[/url]

Jewlieee

Posted : 8/11/2008 3:34:31 PM

OK, I watched both videos and I don't see much difference between the two except that you are more verbal in the first one.

As a side note, Ted is working from a good distance. I think this is one of the differences between BC's and Aussies, no? Aussies like to work in closer and BC's work out a bit more. Neiko works in much closer than Ted but that could be inexperience as well. We are working on getting him to give the sheep more space.

Thanks for posting your videos. It's good learning for me! :)

brookcove

Posted : 8/12/2008 7:39:47 AM

As a side note, Ted is working from a good distance. I think this is one of the differences between BC's and Aussies, no? Aussies like to work in closer and BC's work out a bit more.

Eye allows a dog to work further away, no matter what the breed. Ted has little eye and naturally works close. Ted's working in these videos about where I'd like to see a good finished Aussie work. When Ted's finished, he'll probably work about twice the distance, but a dog with more eye than him can get even further back! The advantage of working from a distance, is the ability to settle sheep faster, and also control them with less movement (as if the distance between them were a lever).

In the first video I'm working on getting him to stop off balance and flank in directions that don't "feel right". In 0:37 I say, "See if we change the draw . . ." and then we are going to move the sheep about 50 yards down field. To get Ted to stop pushing there, I use the traditional method of "ugly voice" and "nice voice" (which the camera can't pick up), and taking him out of the work altogether if things get really hairy (lying him down as at 0:46). When I ask him to get up from lying down, he charges forward to "make up the distance" and I have to get really strong again (I was a bit late on the correction - I could have gotten away with a lighter correction, earlier). The last few correction/reinforcement sequences are much lighter, almost inaudible, and you can see Ted is behaving himself. But, he's much more tense.

So I decided to try a method that my friend proposed, to reinforce strongly the final desired behavior and let the dog figure out the best way to achieve that. This worked like a charm for my job-oriented Ted.

In the second video, notice how in the first few seconds Ted gathers the sheep and when the camera turns around to follow him on the second command ("Come bye";), the sheep are halfway across the field from me. They should have stayed right with me. Ted "bumped" them there. That's what I want to stop.

So I want to set up the final result (sheep standing quietly near me) and reward him for it.

At 1:23 I get the sheep and have to do some work to settle them, but at least they don't run past me. You can hear me comment, "We're almost there!" We get them to sit still for a while and I just talk nicely to Ted and the sheep. Ted just can't stand it though - he shouldn't have moved when I moved, and cut in closer and closer every time he flanked around. Notice how much closer he is in 2:14 - and then he "bumps" the sheep away just by getting up and lying down again.

But there is a huge attitude difference in his outrun that starts at 2:31. Compare his attitude when he brings them back starting at 2:47. I let him hold them for a couple of seconds and told him what a good dog he was, then we left while the leaving was good!

spiritdogs

Posted : 8/12/2008 10:40:27 AM

Anyone with an interest in Aussies working cattle, which is what they were originally intended for, can get a nice video made by Slash V Australian Shepherds. Probably some of Sequoyah's relatives in that one:-) She's got some of those bloodlines as well as Pincie Creek & Hardin's. You'll be able to see dogs that head and heel, and I like the guy's approach about blocking, but not scaring the dog.

Pitty

Posted : 8/19/2008 12:02:29 PM

thank you for sharing...