Obesity in Dogs? An Article by Robert Abady

mudpuppy

I wish abady would use their amazing abilities to produce a line of people foods that kept people from getting fat. They'd make a fortune.

LMAO.  Amen.  And they would never even have to advertise beyond this forum.  Where do I sign up?

Getting fatter, older and tireder.

 Charlie it may help your cause if you inserted more "IMO" into your posts,instead of stating everything as FACTS.

rwbeagles

CC, speaking as a forum member who cares about the tone of this forum in general,

It's really not accurate to isolate a quote and spin it in a direction it was not pointed. The word starve has a negative connotation and it's also totally inaccurate for the post you are referring to. No advice was given by MP that is not also given by most large breed breeders and vets as well.

I am unsure why you needed to choose such a sensational word...you could have made your point, that you do not agree with leanness in a puppy being valuable to their health, without stooping to tabloid tactics.

Mudpuppy...I agree with you...it's to a large breed pups benefit to be leaner rather than plump...and I realize that is actually the point of your post. Good point.

Fair question Gina and I would like to respond to this (sorry not sooner; just getting home from work).  Did you read that comment by Mudpuddy?  Just in case you missed it:

folks, do NOT feed Abady to puppies. Especially their so-called "giant puppy" food. The calcium content is too high to be safe. And please restrict your growing pup's food intake. Puppies need to be kept very lean for their health. Actually, adult dogs need to be kept lean too. 

Now consider this:  How could a poster be so bold, SO BOLD as to attempt insinuate that as a layperson they know more than the person who has been researching, developing, and manufacturing dog food for more than 30 years?  Can anyone answer that question as to how one could be so bold to even make the above comment?  What is even more ludicrous is that somebody would actually believe that a layperson actually knows more than a person who has been researching, developing and producing feeds for over 30 years.  It is beyond comprehension.  WOW.  It is literally astonishing that MP even thinks she knows more about R. Abady's Giant Breed feed than the developer of the feed himself....THINK ABOUT IT.  Are you people out of your minds?  This has got take the cake.   Well, to answer your question, a bold comment like the quote above IMO does deserve a bold comment in return, like the word STARVE.

I don't even know why to attempt to use logic here but will give it a shot.  Do you all recall a few years back when Innova, by their own admission stated DO NOT feed their particular brand of dog food to lg. breed puppies?  Why did they announce that?  Because they don't want to get sued, that's why.  They came to the realization and were more or less forced to admit the formula is simply too weak to support adequate growth.  Animal source proteins need to present in strong concentrations so tissue mass can keep up with the rate of bone mass.  Obviously the food could not deliver, dogs must have been suffering from catastrophic collapse, and they got very concerned about the possibility or of pending lawsuits. 

You don't need to be concerned about Abady calcium content in the Giant Breed formula because the food does indeed deliver the strong concentration of animal source proteins needed to support ADEQUATE GROWTH where tissue mass can keep up with the rate of bone mass.  If what Mudpuddy stated was true in regards to Abady feeds, where are the lawsuits and the dogs suffering from catastrophic illness and collapse?  There are none because the food properly structured.  It is not rocket science people.  The sad reality is what Mudpuddy stated is true in regards to most all other feeds, a self admission (unwittingly at that mind you) that food intake must be restricted (starve the dog in essence) to slow down growth so hopefully tissue mass can kept up with bone mass.  That is not any concern with Abady feeds because again the feeds are properly structured.  Now, you can take the word of Robert Abady literature with 30+ years under his belt of research and development, or you can listen to Mudpuddy, a layperson who thinks she knows more about Abady's own feeds than Abady himself.  Give it some thought.

CC.

mudpuppy

I wish abady would use their amazing abilities to produce a line of people foods that kept people from getting fat. They'd make a fortune.

Off to pet my starving dogs...

 No they don't, but yes the principle is still there, unsafe for longterm mind you (we are not carnivores) but the principle does work.  It is called the Atkins Diet.  Nah, just forget about, don't even give it a second thought.  It's way too much I think to make any sense at all and logic is something not welcome here I don't think.

 OK...out of here for at least 3-4 days...traveling to Philly to visit some family and watch the Patriots crush the New York football Giants on the new big screen flat LCD wall mounted TV.  Have fun.  Do ponder that Atkins thing too much, it may start making sense.

Charlie

I did the Atkins thing twice and managed to raise my formerly very low cholesterol levels to above healthy levels, bad cholesterol in particular.   And my extremely low blood pressure to slightly on the high side, too.

Gorging on meat isn't an appropriate diet for humans, either.

Selling a food for 30 years doesn't necessarily make one an expert on animal nutrition. It makes you an expert in marketing.  Which you rightly point out is a concern when considering the claims of Nutro, Iams, Purina, etc - but somehow your guy who also has been in the food business forever is somehow exempt from the same standard of skepticism?
 

brookcove

I did the Atkins thing twice and managed to raise my formerly very low cholesterol levels to above healthy levels, bad cholesterol in particular.   And my extremely low blood pressure to slightly on the high side, too.

Gorging on meat isn't an appropriate diet for humans, either.

Selling a food for 30 years doesn't necessarily make one an expert on animal nutrition. It makes you an expert in marketing.  Which you rightly point out is a concern when considering the claims of Nutro, Iams, Purina, etc - but somehow your guy who also has been in the food business forever is somehow exempt from the same standard of skepticism?

Ditto on both points.  The Atkins diet IMO is a killer.

And unless Mr. Abady has some credentials from a university (like a veterinary degree, etc.), then he is nothing more than a layperson when it comes to canine nutrition.  Marketing a food for 30 years doesn't mean he knows more about canine nutrition than any other layperson.  Heck, if that logic holds true, then as a mother I am qualified to be a pediatrician and child psychiatrist, and as a person who has owned dogs for 30 years, I'm a qualified vet, canine nutritionist, trainer, groomer, etc.

brookcove

I did the Atkins thing twice and managed to raise my formerly very low cholesterol levels to above healthy levels, bad cholesterol in particular.   And my extremely low blood pressure to slightly on the high side, too.

Gorging on meat isn't an appropriate diet for humans, either.

Selling a food for 30 years doesn't necessarily make one an expert on animal nutrition. It makes you an expert in marketing.  Which you rightly point out is a concern when considering the claims of Nutro, Iams, Purina, etc - but somehow your guy who also has been in the food business forever is somehow exempt from the same standard of skepticism?

I think they say the maximum time to stay on Atkins would be 90 days?  People who I know who have tried the diet did lose weight and got the other stuff under control like cholesterol.

In regards to Abady just being a salesman for 30 years and a marketing expert....silly.  Skepticism, sure why not, seems very normal to question things and be skeptical.  But then again the outright hatred, jealously, slanderous speech, constant negativity, meanness, is not really a typical reaction like a bit of skepticism.  That is what IMO one you call rude, immature and childish behaviour....a seemingly constant from some (not in regards to you BC).  And on the note it's time to hit the highway....GO PATS.

CC.

I think they say the maximum time to stay on Atkins would be 90 days?  People who I know who have tried the diet did lose weight and got the other stuff under control like cholesterol.

Atkins himself in all his books pushed it as a lifestyle.  I did it for about six or seven months, at the recommendation of my psychologist who saw me gain weight on some drugs I was on for mood modification.  At the time, I thought I was doing great.  I was not losing weight but I was a bit more fit and wasn't gaining any more either - but I had started going to the gym, too. 

I stopped not because I stopped being committed to the lifestyle, but because I had a car accident.  They sent my complete numbers to my GP, who I saw a couple weeks later to try to get a more effective pain me, and he mentioned the increased numbers to me and wanted to know what the heck I was doing.  I had just had a physical nine months before - and I was always a bit of a star patient of his because of my low cholesterol, and low HP in spite of a genetic tendency to hypertension.

Because he wasn't 100% sure it wasn't stress-related, I tried it again last year.  In October I went to the doctor and the same story - and I had in fact gained, not lost weight, in addition to the increased and unhealthy numbers.

I went on the internet and looked up the research - what factors lower LDL and keep it down, ditto BP.  I greatly reduced animal sourced foods, added healthy oils, fiber, legumes, fruits high in antioxidants.  I started following some of the principles of Weight Watcher's Core plan.

By the first of Jan, I went for another physical (I'm getting ready for a surgery end of this month) and my LDL was down, my BP was back to normal levels for me, which are much lower than most people, and I'd lost 17.5 pounds.

The point is, that following figures who make fantastic claims without the expertise to back it up, is never a good idea and is the main reason I'd hesitate from feeding this food (but only one of many).  Too many times I've seen claims to scientific "fact" that are never properly annotated.  This is a big red flag for me as a trained researcher.  I don't understand why someone who completed an advanced degree would make such an error, over and over, unless there's something to hide. 

Biochemistry is one of my hobbies.  It's not a field where comparative studies (the kind you say are suspect because the researchers have an agenda) have much of a place - the reference material you need to see annotated in such discussions is objective in nature - works which show the reader the research behind a protein or lipid's structure, a synthesis, an energy transfer process.  Biochemistry certainly is the foundation of animal nutrition, as it is for vet pharmacology, but I have not seen works from your Mr. A which even remotely resemble the scholarship I'd expect from someone in this field.

I am sorry, but you know I just can't buy this snake oil. 

cc431

a layperson who thinks she knows more about Abady's own feeds than Abady himself.  Give it some thought.

That's the beauty of the internet, we all become instant experts and know more than the manufacturers.  Heck, if you can read a label, you are now a nutritionist, even though any nutritonist will tell you that an ingredients list, tells you very little about the quality of the food, because it is about nutrients not ingredients and you have no way of telling the quality of the nutrients, by looking at the ingredients or the quality of the ingredients used for that matter, so this whole idea that you can tell the quality of a food by looking at in on paper is compeletley flawed. Yet the marketing teams for many companies are playing that up for all it's worth. And even if it was  possible, which it isn't, if the food which looks good on paper, is not palatable enough and the dog does not consume enough of the feed to achieve proper nutrition, it is a bad product, and that is a problem with many feeds, and is the #1 reason they fail AAFCO testing or do not even attempt it.  I say we all get together and market a squid, tapioca and blueberry feed, no one has tried that one yet.

cc431

If what Mudpuddy stated was true in regards to Abady feeds, where are the lawsuits and the dogs suffering from catastrophic illness and collapse? 

Perhaps the 10 people in the world who feed Abady have never had a problem?

America has problems with exercise , good nutrition , and education that would make us healthier as a society. We like to fix things once they are broken. Rather then feed Abady , Innova, Eagle Pack, others to lose weight just study nature ... Go out into it with your dog and observe the beautiful world we have. Your dog and yourself will feel better.

Perhaps the reason why cc431's hunting dog is lean is because of the training and all the running through the woods.  I feel bad for small companies that have to resort to such antics as the Rants of Abady... The food should sell itself it's so good. I suspect the high price is the only way he could stay in business.

 i thought the atkins myth had been debunked?  i always found it better to eat a well balanced diet and reduce my calorie intake, along with proper exercise, worked best to lose weight.

the people i knew who tried atkins lost weight, but were constantly tired and grouchy while on it. once they discontinued the diet, the weight started to come back. why? their focus was never on trying to establish a healthy lifestyle, but merely trying to lose weight quickly. 

You don't need to be concerned about Abady calcium content in the Giant Breed formula because the food does indeed deliver the strong concentration of animal source proteins needed to support ADEQUATE GROWTH where tissue mass can keep up with the rate of bone mass. 

wow. Has Abady read any of the science on calcium during puppy growth? seems unlikely. OK, do a well-designed feed study on great dane puppies the way Eaglepack did and then I'll believe you. Until then, I sincerely hope no dogs get damaged by your foods.

mudpuppy

You don't need to be concerned about Abady calcium content in the Giant Breed formula because the food does indeed deliver the strong concentration of animal source proteins needed to support ADEQUATE GROWTH where tissue mass can keep up with the rate of bone mass. 

wow. Has Abady read any of the science on calcium during puppy growth? seems unlikely. OK, do a well-designed feed study on great dane puppies the way Eaglepack did and then I'll believe you. Until then, I sincerely hope no dogs get damaged by your foods.

 Yeah...you're right.  It is irrelevant as to how much "animal protein" is in the food when there is a high amount of calcium.  The high amount of calcium will STILL make the dog's bones grow super fast...even if the tissue mass can keep up....rapid growth is still rapid growth.  You are just asking for trouble in this situation and I cannot believe he would sit there and say that as if he knew anything about a word he was saying.

 
Also (as I just read this thread today)...self regulation??? Seriously!  Tell that to my APBT.
 

i thought the atkins myth had been debunked?  i always found it better to eat a well balanced diet and reduce my calorie intake, along with proper exercise, worked best to lose weight.

no, actually atkins has been shown to be quite effective. Low-carb high-protein diets have been shown to work really well for both weight loss and improving overall health in both dogs and people. Especially dogs who can't sneak off to dunkin donuts and cheat. here's one study.

. JAMA. 2007 Mar 7;297(9):969-77. Links

Comparison of the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and LEARN diets for change in weight and related risk factors among overweight premenopausal women: the A TO Z Weight Loss Study: a randomized trial.

Stanford Prevention Research Center and the Department of Medicine, Stanford University Medical School, Stanford, Calif, USA. cgardner@stanford.edu

CONTEXT: Popular diets, particularly those low in carbohydrates, have challenged current recommendations advising a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet for weight loss. Potential benefits and risks have not been tested adequately. OBJECTIVE: To compare 4 weight-loss diets representing a spectrum of low to high carbohydrate intake for effects on weight loss and related metabolic variables. DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: Twelve-month randomized trial conducted in the United States from February 2003 to October 2005 among 311 free-living, overweight/obese (body mass index, 27-40) nondiabetic, premenopausal women. INTERVENTION: Participants were randomly assigned to follow the Atkins (n = 77), Zone (n = 79), LEARN (n = 79), or Ornish (n = 76) diets and received weekly instruction for 2 months, then an additional 10-month follow-up. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Weight loss at 12 months was the primary outcome. Secondary outcomes included lipid profile (low-density lipoprotein, high-density lipoprotein, and non-high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and triglyceride levels), percentage of body fat, waist-hip ratio, fasting insulin and glucose levels, and blood pressure. Outcomes were assessed at months 0, 2, 6, and 12. The Tukey studentized range test was used to adjust for multiple testing. RESULTS: Weight loss was greater for women in the Atkins diet group compared with the other diet groups at 12 months, and mean 12-month weight loss was significantly different between the Atkins and Zone diets (P<.05). Mean 12-month weight loss was as follows: Atkins, -4.7 kg (95% confidence interval [CI], -6.3 to -3.1 kg), Zone, -1.6 kg (95% CI, -2.8 to -0.4 kg), LEARN, -2.6 kg (-3.8 to -1.3 kg), and Ornish, -2.2 kg (-3.6 to -0.8 kg). Weight loss was not statistically different among the Zone, LEARN, and Ornish groups. At 12 months, secondary outcomes for the Atkins group were comparable with or more favorable than the other diet groups. CONCLUSIONS: In this study, premenopausal overweight and obese women assigned to follow the Atkins diet, which had the lowest carbohydrate intake, lost more weight at 12 months than women assigned to follow the Zone diet, and had experienced comparable or more favorable metabolic effects than those assigned to the Zone, Ornish, or LEARN diets [corrected] While questions remain about long-term effects and mechanisms, a low-carbohydrate, high-protein, high-fat diet may be considered a feasible alternative recommendation for weight loss. TRIAL REGISTRATION: clinicaltrials.gov Identifier: NCT00079573.

PMID: 17341711 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE