Need help with recall, leave it, release...

    • Gold Top Dog

    Need help with recall, leave it, release...

    First, I'd like to know if a "leave it" command and a "drop it" command should be two seperate things.  I want to be able to tell the dog to stop focusing on something, like going towards an animal in the woods, trying to pick up roadkill, etc.  But I also need a command for when she fetches and won't give me back the toy.  I'm assuming they should be two seperate commands like a "leave it" and "release"?

    This is an insanely hyper and active dog.  Almost 3 yrs old, very poorly trained.  She lunges and snaps.  We hope to turn her around and work on the two commands above, as well as a recall.  Currently, I'd say her recall is nonexistant.  She knows her name and I think understands what "come" means, but she never listens so we need to start over with that.

    I'm comfortable with teaching sit, stay, shake, down, heel, kennel, and load, but I don't have experience with these other commands.  Please advise techniques, websites, etc.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Use a drag line consistently.  That will give you control and offer options to deal with just about anything. 
     
    As to leave it.  Get something novel on the floor and some thing REALLY tasty in your pocket.  Using the line, move toward the object on the floor.  When the dog is focused on the object (move slow and controlled), get out the treat.  Wave the treat so the scent reaches the dog.  Back away from the object, say leave it, treat dog.
     
    Use the trade option to teach the drop it or out command.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Can I "trade" something for another of the same or is that confusing?  This dog only cares about two things: running and her buoys.  I need her to "leave" the buoy unless I say to fetch it and then release the buoy after she's fetched it.  Currently, she does neither and runs around with it in her mouth and won't let us near it unless I distract her with a second one.  If I get her out and she sees one, she'll take it from me (there's no WAY I can win a tug contest with this dog) or she'll even be leaping 10 feet in the air trying to get one out of the tree where someone put it away from her.  I just don't even know where to begin, she's gotten so bad.  I can have her on a shorter lead all the time, but she's so strong and hyper, she does not respond to Cesar-esque corrections other than a HARD pull on a prong collar.  She just will not listen and will not pay attention.  You can't use the buoy or treats to hold her attention because she instantly charges and will bite them out of your hands, it's no matter to her if she gets a few fingers at the same time.  She makes me so mad, but we've taught her to heel pretty well and taught her to hold her sit-stay before we ask her to fetch, so I know she's smart.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Strauss has two separate commands, and I tend to enact both of them during play.
     
    His drop it command is "Aus", and as long as it's near my feet, I don't care if he puts the toy in my hand or not (he has a new love for tennis balls).  Leave it is simply that...leave it.
     
    When I throw a ball for him,  he's allowed to pick it up and run helter skelter for a minute, and then it's "Come...aus...leave it", and upon the leave it command, Strauss backs his butt up and waits for another chuck.
     
    If I get her out and she sees one, she'll take it from me (there's no WAY I can win a tug contest with this dog)

     
    Then she needs to learn "If it's in my hand, it's MINE!" she doesn't get to take it.  If she gets it from you, simply let go, and ignore her.  If she won't play by your rules, she won't get to play at all.
     
    I'd start with a toy that's less high value to her than those buoys.  It'll make it easier and more fair for her to learn the "My hand = my toy" rule.
     
    Alta Tollhaus dogs are known for their fairly decent drives.  She's not hyper...she's normal...for her lines.  You think she's bad?  Go watch a Czech dog in action xD 
     
    Many trainers use a "two ball" method, simply because it's easier on them than fighting with the dog about giving up the one they have.  This is not to say the dogs don't have a leave it, or out command, but you need to pick your battles :-p
     
    There's nothing wrong with trading for something that is the same, as long as the dog obeys the "out" command
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks Xeph!  It's acutally not my Alta Tollhaus dog (I PRAY she will not be like this!), it's my uncles dog.  She is so frustrating, working with her makes me want to cry, and then she lunges and snaps at my arms which makes me want to cry more.  It's physically and emotionally draining to constantly have a full grown, extremely strong and fit dog constantly charging at you and biting.  I've watched a lot of Cesar and not that this thread has anything to do with him, but for comparisons sake, she is FAR worse than any dog I've seen on his show yet.  It's really hard for me to "just control" a dog that bites me and challenges every step I take.

    PS.  I want to teach Chop in German if she's not already!
    • Gold Top Dog
    My dog has a "leave it" a "give" and a "drop it" command. They're all for different things.
     
    Leave it is to not go after something, don't pick it up, move away, etc.
    Drop it is to drop something on the ground.
    Give is to give me something that is in the dog's mouth.
     
    My aussie learned leave it by a method that I think was over kill. Our trainer did it basically by scaring the bejezus out of my dog (I didn't know this was coming). She used a bottle filled with rocks and everytime my dog went after the item we were using, the trainer would slam the bottle against the ground yelling "leave it!" It was definitely effective and my aussie learned leave it real fast but he did not trust the trainer after. He wouldn't even take cheesy treats from her. So, I wouldn't use this method if you are doing the training yourself. It might break the dogs trust in you. There are other, positive altneratives out there. I still feel guilty at how my dog learned leave it!
     
    My brother taught leave it by placing a treat under his foot. When the dog finally stopped pawing at his foot, sat back and looked up, he said "leave it, good girl" and gave his dog a treat. Gradually he could leave a treat on the ground in front of his dog and say leave it, then take it. She does leave it really well in a nice positive way. If I were to do it all over again, I'd teach my dog leave it with this method.
     
    Drop it and give were really easy. For give, my dog likes to pick up my socks and walk around the house with them. So, whenever he'd do that I'd say "give" and take it from his mouth and give him a treat and lots of praise. In the beginning I sometimes would have to pry his mouth open to get the sock. Now he'll walk up to me with the sock in his mouth when I say give and give me the sock. I also use give when playing fetch.
     
    Drop it uses the same technique. A treat for dropping the item on the floor. If you wait the dog out, it will eventually drop whatever it has in exchange for the tasty treat. Lable and practice this behavior with either a clicker or a bridge word and highly desirable treats.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Drop it and give were really easy. For give, my dog likes to pick up my socks and walk around the house with them. So, whenever he'd do that I'd say "give" and take it from his mouth and give him a treat and lots of praise. In the beginning I sometimes would have to pry his mouth open to get the sock.


    ooooo, you've reminded me of a huge part of the problem - I cannot get her mouth open!  The only way we've found works is to flick her hard on the bridge of her nose, but IMO that's not really appropriate all the time.  You cannot pull something out of this dog's mouth, nor will she let you open her mouth.  Also, every time I try, I lose the battle, which reinforces that SHE is the winner and that I'm just playing tug with her. 

    I feel like maybe we should work on "leave it" so I can have her on a lead and keep her from getting the buoy before we work on "release".  Maybe this way she will get it through her head that I'm in charge and be more receptive to letting go? 

    Part of the problem is that she's never been rewarded with treats or any toys.  The buoy itself is her greatest reward.  At this point, I can't see her easily dropping the buoy in favor of a treat.  She would leave food if she saw me getting out the buoy!
    • Gold Top Dog
    She is so frustrating, working with her makes me want to cry, and then she lunges and snaps at my arms which makes me want to cry more.

    HAH! Right now you just want to cry...wait until you DO cry xD
     
    I don't say that to be discouraging, but it's the truth.  Did you read my thread about Strauss and our agility issues?  He's made me cry.  RANGER has made me cry (and Ranger dog is usually a walk in the park compared to Mouse).
     
    The German Shepherd Dog is a breed that one loves because it has some quality about it that just isn't tangible.  They are NOT an "easy breed" in the long run.  They are biddable, highly intelligent, highly trainable...and highly frustrating.
     
    There are times I look at my boys and I think "WTF is wrong with me?!  What have I gotten into!?" Because I am just SO upset with the way something had gone in training that day.  But I know in the end, I love them, and while I do plan on having another breed (Corgwyn), the GSD is MY breed, and no other will measure up to it.
     
    It's physically and emotionally draining to constantly have a full grown, extremely strong and fit dog constantly charging at you and biting.

    Preachin' to the choir sister xD
     
    PS.  I want to teach Chop in German if she's not already!

    It totally doubles the coolness factor of your dog.  Now not only does your dog sit when you tell it to (because OMG that is just SO COOL!) the dog "speaks a foreign language" (*ROFL* ...the dog speaks a foreign language just like I speak esperanto :-p)
     
    Are you going to keep her name, or change it? 
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Are you going to keep her name, or change it?


    I don't know.  Is it offensive to change it?  I don't really know what else to call her.


    Here's the dog in question for this thread, pictured with her precious buoy that nobody else dare touch

    • Gold Top Dog
    How bonded, if at all, is this dog to humans? Will she work for praise or could she not give two hoots about your approval?

    If possible, I would lock up the buoys for now and work on easier drop it/leave it situations. With my dog (the schnauzer), I keep her stuffed AKC duck locked up. After I drill her for 10-15 minutes on sit, stay, down, etc. (using treats) and finish with a successful harder exercise, out comes the duck for a hour or so for her to play with. For her, it is the ultimate reward, similar to a jackpot of treats. After she loses interest in it (usually after about an hour of chewing on it), I put it away and bring it out again after a training session. We do not try to do leave it/drop it with the duck yet...we'd be set up to fail.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I would first teach the dog a 100% reliable recall, or as close as you can get.  Leslie Nelson's DVD "Really Reliable Recall" is worth watching.  Recalls are taught on lead - as mrv suggests, a 30' lead can be your best friend.  But the first thing you need is "attention".  Good procedure for getting that head snap as soon as you say "Fido" is at www.clickerlessons.com.  If you can get the dog to immediately look at you (thus, not at the squirrel, jogger, etc.) you can get him to come.  It does no good, at first, to try to call the dog when you see only his tail.  First things first.  Once you get the recall, I'm happy to give you my method of teaching "leave it" (and my dogs will leave a moving bird or cat to come to me). [;)]  But, you can't pair "leave it" with "come" until "come" is solid.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I agree with stormyknight. It sounds like you need to lock up the buoy(s) for a while and only bring it out after training for an end training session reward.