Why not Innova Puppy

    • Gold Top Dog

    Why not Innova Puppy

    Hey all,
    I don't spend much time in the nutrition threads, mainly because it's not my expertise.  I do need some advice though.
     
    I met with a client last Wednesday.  They just got a new Westie Puppy that is about 10 weeks old.  I always ask what they are feeding in the consult, and she was feeding Iams, because the vet recommended it. 
     
    I recommended that they change to Innova puppy mainly because I feed my dogs Innova and couldn't be happier with there health, and as far as I can tell it seems to be better food. 
     
    Well, they had a vet appointment today, and the vet explained to them that I was wrong. He said that Innova had to much protein for a puppy (he said they need more fat), and that they should stick with Iams. 
     
    He wants to meet with me tomorrow to "educate" me on nutrition.  Could some of the experts on here please explain who is right (if either of us are) and why. 
     
    Thanks for the help.
    • Gold Top Dog
    For smaller dogs it doesn't really matter that much it is the large breed puppies that may have problems.
     
    Here is a link that talks about it:

    [linkhttp://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm]http://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Iams has 2% more protein and 5% more fat. Innova's formula does seem a bit off from most foods, holistic and grocery store, in that those foods usually are 27-28% protein and 14-17% fat.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Mic, I would poke around [linkhttp://www.dogfoodproject.com]http://www.dogfoodproject.com[/link]

    It gives a lot of information on choosing foods based on ingredients and general knowledge of how the ingredients should be used.  I personally would never feed Iams (way too many "iffy" things in it), the the website should be able to enlighten you a lot more in a short period of time, I would think.

    HTH
    • Gold Top Dog
    Here is one from Purina
     
     




    DEMYSTIFYING MYTHS ABOUT PROTEIN




    Despite scientific advances that have increased the nutritional knowledge about the importance of protein in a dog's diet, there still are myths that feeding too much protein or the wrong kind of protein can be harmful.

    Among breeders' key concerns about protein are: Does too much protein cause kidney failure in older dogs? Is it true that feeding large-breed puppies too much protein causes developmental bone problems? Can soy protein cause bloat, a potentially fatal illness, when fed to dogs?

    The answers to these questions are no. In fact, research shows there is more reason to be concerned about feeding healthy dogs an inadequate amount of dietary protein.

    Here, we present facts about protein to help you determine the best amount to include in your dog's diet for a healthy and long life.

    The Geriatric Dog
    Nutritional research has shown that healthy older dogs need more protein than young adult dogs - as much as 50 percent more. The additional protein is required to maintain a geriatric dog's protein reserves and support protein turnover, which are important in helping the dog's immune system function at its full capacity. Dogs that do not receive adequate protein are more susceptible to stress, such as injury or infection.

    Dottie Laflamme, D.V.M., Ph.D., a Ralston Research Fellow, says, "It is important to provide older dogs with enough protein to help them fight the stress of aging, including injury and infection. Dogs fed inadequate amounts of protein may appear healthy, but may be less able to resist infection or fight off other diseases."

    Despite this research, there has been a longstanding concern that excessive protein in diets for older dogs may cause kidney damage. The link is traced to clinical signs in dogs with kidney failure that relate to a buildup of byproducts from protein metabolism. However, research conducted during the past decade has shown that protein does not harm the kidneys.

    Research first supporting the link between excessive protein and kidney disease was conducted in the 1920s, showing that male rodents exhibited progressive renal disease when fed a high-protein diet. 1 Another study on rodents, conducted in 1982 by B.M. Brenner, also showed that excess dietary protein caused kidney damage. 2 Though these studies were correct in rats, the results unfortunately were extrapolated to other species.

    In contrast, research over the past 10 years or so has shown that protein does not harm the kidney of dogs. In studies conducted at the University of Georgia in the early 1990s, both in dogs with chronic kidney failure and in older dogs with only one kidney, protein levels as high as 34 percent caused no ill effects. 3

    Delmar R. Finco, D.V.M., Ph.D., professor of veterinary medicine at the University of Georgia, says, "Our work was directed at learning whether a high-protein diet damages the kidney. After four years' studying geriatric dogs and two years' studying dogs with chronic renal failure, we found no indication that a high-protein diet was injurious to the kidney. However, the data did raise the question whether low-protein diets in geriatric dogs could be considered injurious."

    In other studies, David S. Kronfeld, Ph.D., indicated that compared with high- or low-protein diets, moderate-protein diets, those with up to 34 percent protein, had no ill effects in dogs with chronic renal failure and were associated with general improvement. 4 The report confirmed that unless a dog has clinical evidence of kidney disease or other problems for which protein restriction may be beneficial, there is no reason to recommend a change to a low-protein diet.

    Research on dogs at other universities and at the Purina Pet Care Center has generated similar results. Julie Churchill, D.V.M., assistant clinical specialist in companion animal nutrition at the University of Minnesota, was an investigator in studies to learn whether altering the amounts of dietary protein and fat could protect the kidney in aging dogs. 5

    "We found there is no benefit in restricting protein in geriatric dogs," Churchill says. "We observed no changes in morbidity or mortality. So, the question is, 'Why restrict protein if there is no benefit?'"

    Similarly, preliminary findings from the Purina Pet Care Center indicate that healthy geriatric dogs fed 45 percent dietary protein have maintained health and body condition, with no evidence of increased kidney damage due to protein intake. The evidence supports other recent research that protein at any level consistent with complete and balanced nutrition has no adverse effect on the kidneys of normal, healthy dogs.

    It is known that as dogs age they become less efficient in metabolizing protein than young dogs so that older dogs require more protein than young adult dogs to fully replenish their protein reserves and maintain protein turnover. The specific amount of protein needed, as a percent of diet, depends on several factors.

    "Geriatric dogs should be treated individually," Churchill says. "I think it's important to conduct a good health examination and blood biochemical profile by the time a dog is 7 years old in order to evaluate organ functioning and determine the best diet for that individual dog."

    Similar to how the nutritional needs of dogs change with their age and lifestyle, their energy requirements tend to decrease with age. However, not all geriatric animals are less active or overweight. In fact, a greater proportion of older dogs are underweight than any other age group.

    Many inactive older dogs need fewer calories, so it is important that they consume less food or a lower calorie food than they ate when they were younger. For this reason, many foods for older dogs are formulated to contain fewer calories, but it is important that they receive adequate intake of protein and other nutrients while reducing calorie intake.

    The quality of the protein in dog food also is important. It must contain the right balance of amino acids and be digestible. This usually is accomplished by using two or more complementary proteins to achieve an optimum balance. For example, soybean meal and corn protein complement each other because the amino acids that are deficient in one are present in the other. Protein digestibility is achieved by the selection of ingredients and the processing. Processing that becomes too hot can destroy the amino acid content and lessens digestibility.

    Large-Breed Puppies
    Dietary protein requirements are much higher for growing puppies than for fully grown dogs. In addition to supplying the protein needed to support protein turnover and normal cellular metabolism, protein is needed to build growing muscles and other tissues.

    Research at the Purina Pet Care Center and at other facilities has shown that puppies fed inadequate protein do not grow as well and are more susceptible to health problems than those fed nutritionally complete diets. At the Pet Care Center, English setter puppies that were fed a low-protein diet showed stunted growth compared to puppies fed higher levels of protein. However, when the protein level was increased in the puppies at the Pet Care Center, the deficiency was corrected.

    Concern about protein causing developmental bone problems in large-breed puppies has led some breeders to reduce the amount of protein they feed. However, in research published in 1993 based on studies of Great Dane puppies at Utrecht University in the Netherlands, it was shown that dietary protein does not contribute to these problems. 6

    Herman A. Hazewinkel, D.V.M., Ph.D., professor of veterinary medicine at Utrecht University, led the research that found no detrimental effects from protein levels up to 32 percent of the diet. However, puppies fed a diet of only 15 percent protein showed evidence of inadequate protein intake.

    "Too low protein decreases the growth rate of puppies and also their immunological response," Hazewinkel says. "This is true for large- and small-breed puppies. An adequate protein level should be higher than 15 percent."

    This study, conducted in young Great Danes during their first half-year of life, concluded that dietary protein increased to 32 percent does not negatively affect skeletal or cartilage development in these dogs. The research also confirmed that dietary protein did not have detrimental effects on liver and kidney functioning.

    Here is link
     
    [linkhttp://www.purina.ca/dogs/puppies.asp?article=471]http://www.purina.ca/dogs/puppies.asp?article=471[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Wow, that sucks!  I just did a nutritional seminar for a vet clinic.  Dr. Puerling from the Animal Wellness Clinic in Michigan City Indiana recommends Innova and sells Innova in her store along with a variety of other all natural foods. Maybe if  you show  this vet Animal Wellness Clinic's  website  he'll see that  he needs to update his facts  and that other vets see Innova as a better food than Iams. www.animalwellnessclinic.com

    Ask that vet were he learned his nutrition facts.  He probably learned them in a college nutrition class funded by Iams and Eukanuba with the book written by Iams and Eukanuba.

    I'd collect as much info as you can to back up your claim.  Make sure they are scientific resources.

    Good Luck!
    • Gold Top Dog
    I cant see saying no Innova yes Iams... thats just crazy, its a much higher quality food with human grade ingredients.  That in itself can add to your argument. Can *I* eat the things used in Iams?  No, but I can in Innova.  Also, the ingredients are specifically listed, not a bunch of mumbo jumbo that doesnt tell you what it REALLY is.  Maybe that vet only heard of the EVO and was talking about that...? 
     
    The vet I work for recommends Purina to a lot of people, but she is at the humane society and they DO sell that there.  I told her I feed Innova and she said "Oh good! Innova is an EXCELLENT food!"  All happy.... I think at times vets dont have the time or energy to preach to everyone who comes in a about nutrition, which they should, but dont. 
     
     But in this case its like the vet is totally unaware of the facts.
    • Gold Top Dog
    so what happened?
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't spend much time in the nutrition threads, mainly because it's not my expertise.


    Even more reason to spend more time on the nutrition boards[;)].Not everyone who posts here is an "expert",alot of people just come to read and learn[:D] If everyone only posted on topics that were their expertise the boards would be pretty much empty [8D]

    As for the iams/innova,i have to agree with the fat point,IMHO innova doesnt have enough fat,however there are loads better foods around that DO have the same amount of protein or lower and more fat.One doesnt have to downgrade to a food such as iams to find the desired nutrient amounts.

    Tell your client,or your vet,not sure which one it is you're meeting,to compare the ingredients of iams and innova side by side and also direct them to the food comparison link on the natura site.If they still think iams is the better food than they are the ones who need to be "educated".If this vet believes iams is a superior food to innova i would gently suggest he does a few courses on animal nutrition as he obviously has no clue what constitutes a good food and what it is dogs actually need [sm=rolleyes.gif]
    • Puppy
    My son feeds his cocker puppy nothing but Innova Puppy and she is doing great on it.  Beautiful coat and is in great shape.  she's 9 months old and soon to move up to Innova adult.
    • Gold Top Dog
    How did the meeting with the vet go ??????????