Protein and Fat - how much ?

The way to compare the amount of protein in wet and dry foods is called a dry matter basis;  [linkhttp://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/dm.html]http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/dm.html[/link]; " The formula for calculating the DM percentages of nutrients in pet foods is determined by... Nutrient  percent divided by Reciprocal of the Moisture percent. "
 
  Using the formula, wet food has more protein than dry food.

  

Here is a decent article on puppy and kitten foods, which are special purpose.

[linkhttp://petsdelightlosaltos.com/special.htm]http://petsdelightlosaltos.com/special.htm[/link]

For large breed puppies you want:
.7-1.2% Calcium
.6-1.1% Phosphorus
Minimum of 18% protein with a minimum digestability (after extrusion) of 85%
Fat 8-12%

For weight loss:
Fat less than 10-12%
Fiber greater than 12%
Protein greater than 25%
L-carnitine at 300ppm

For everything else its really up to interpretation... there is a wide variety, and unless your dog has special needs (high energy, overweight, joint problems), as long as you meet minimum requirements its really not a big deal.

You can figure the prtein and fat on almost all foods using this calculator and it shows you the recommended ranges also

[linkhttp://balanceit.com/p01_index.php]http://balanceit.com/p01_index.php[/link]

I'd like to know what the ranges "should be" for each life stage

note that the studies performed to establish these %'s are pretty bad. They are 
the minimum necessary to maintain life for a few months while being kept in a cage. They have nothing to do with maintaining optimal health over the life of the dog.

While some may not agree with this info, its' very informative.
 
[linkhttp://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf]http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf[/link]

Wow - GREAT info and links
I'm playing with the BalanceIT calculators right now.  I keep coming up with a whole bunch of "potentially deficient nutrients" which is concerning me a bit.
However, the number of calories they've calculated is way more than I'm feeding - and Prancer has gained some weight on them (guess its lack of exercise - I'll have to work on that one - tough with the backyard being infested with fleas - it will be treated with nematodes on April 11th).
It also appears that too much of her diet is fat based upon what I'm feeding.  And oddly - the carbs are low.  Most of her foods have potato or sweet potato so I'm really confused by these results.
 
With all those potentially deficient nutrients I'm really wondering if I should give her 1/4 of a vit/min supplement a day - but I dont want to overload any of the other nutrients. 
 
Geez - ignorance really is bliss sometimes LOL

I just went there for the first time, too.
 
Unlike JoAnne,  I couldn't find where is said there were nutritional deficencies.  I will have to look again.
 
Like JoAnne, I am confused and shocked about some things.  Now, I now my guys are still hungry even tho I have been feeding 2 1/2 - 3% body weight.  Now I see it's b/c the kcals are so low.  I have been feeding 1/2 cooked meat (which is more on a raw basis) and then adding in a veggie and a sweet pot. 
 
Well, the kcals were 1/2 of suggested.  They do say at the bottom that the kcals can be off by 50%.  I do not think I need to double, but maybe increase their food intake by 1/2 as much again.   I guess more meat since it was the only thing really contributing to kcals.    The potatoes barely added in any carbs.  I cannot do grains, due to food allergies.
 
Gee, with two medium sized dogs, I am already doing nearly a pound of meat a day.  Increasing it is difficult- budget wise.  Any suggestion on how else to get the kcals up any other than more meat?  If Mudpuppy is right about this being minimal, then I don't see any way anyone can afford to homecook with all the meat required.  My boy at 45 lbs would be getting 3/4 lb a day cooked - that is about 1 lb a day raw equivelent and would put it at about 75% of their target range.  And if that is minimal - then that would put me well over 1 1/2 a day for my 45 lb. boy would need if it is minimal.  That just doesn't make sense.  So, I have to assume it is not minimal b/c there is no way I can afford to give my dogs nearly 3 lbs of meat a day for dogs that weigh a total of 75 lbs.  I think it must not be minimal.
 
Fat content was quite high  They just got 85% lean hamburger this morning - and it is quite fatty.  But, I was hoping the oil in it would help curb their appetite.  Maybe it is too high fat ????
 
Geez, this is no fun learning all this stuff. 

I don't find the Balanceit site to be accurate at all.  I serve 2.5% of my dog's body weight a day and he's in perfect condition----never acts hungry, is lean and active.  According to this site I am way underfeeding him (by about 50%)---if I fed him what they are asking me to, he would be huge.  By the way, it also indicates that he is deficient in so many nutrients---I just don't buy it.  (He's currently eating primarily NV raw).

Thanks for the feedback on BalanceIT, I was getting concerned.
 
I've been feeding based upon the RER formula, so from a caloric intake I SHOULD be feeding the right amt.
 
I won't worry about the nutrients on that website given the feedback - thanks for that.
 
I really DO like the calculator for Proteins, Fats and Carbs in the commercial foods.  Saves me whipping out the calculator and doing the math myself.

Keep in mind that the Balanceit site is trying to sell it's products----supplements---so it stands to reason that all foods may come up deficient.  hmmm...

What is RER formula?

Good point, tzu mom!

Do you think the kcals are accurate, tho?  And fat / protein levels. So, if you just use it to determine the basics, do you think it is accurate?
 
Edited:
 
I had been feeding Cal. Natural Lamb with 430 kcals per cup.  One cup feeding two times a day.
 
According to the balance it site, then the amount of food I have been feeding with the 4 oz. cooked meat and veggies have been right on target.  That does put it at 50% less than their site says.
 
So, I have been doing right.  My guys are getting good protein and plenty of fat.    They can't do grains due to allergies.
 
So, why do they act so hungry --- they really are hungry.
 
I do supplement with calcium and a multi-vitamin, probiotics at the moment.    I don't know what to do different.  
 
If they are getting the same kcals - mostly from meat - then why act hungrier than when they ate the kibble?

Chasza--
 
RER--resting energy requirement----here's a good site in determining how much to feed:
 
[linkhttp://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=2612]http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=2612[/link]
 
Keep in mind:    1 pound = 2.2 kg
 
I think the kcals on the Balanceit site are off----I usually feed between  2-2.5% of my pups body weight per day depending on his activity level. That would be  somewhere between 280-350 kcals a day----the site calls for 448 kcals per day.
The fat and protein levels seem to be pretty much on target, though.
 
How long have your dogs been off kibble?  I ask this because when I took Oscar off kibble and transitioned to canned/homecooked/raw he did seem WAY hungrier at first---I almost doubled his intake of food for about a month, decreasing the amount by increments until he just finally stabilized to where he's at now.  (He never gained any weigh during that time, he just seemed to need more food for whatever reason). I have heard from other raw feeders and homecookers that they experienced the same thing when transitioning from kibble. 

Dogs are like people. They vary greatly in the calories they require every day. My sister's Golden could get fat on a diet of celery and air while my brother's Golden eats nearly twice the recommend amount of high quality kibble and is still lean. Same breed, same size, same exrcise. Just different metabolisms. Add in things like age, metabolic problems like hypothyroid, and digestive issues like colitis or allergies and the idea that you can figure out how many calories per pound a dog requires is pretty ludicrous.

I sure wish it was simpler. I can put on a pound just walking by the snack box at work. While a coworker who weighs 93 pounds and is twice my age eats constantly and never gains weight. She wears the same size jeans as my 8 year old son (10 slim).

Well,  I came up with the same figure from the RER as the BalanceIT site.  Well, aprox. anyway.   Both more than I am feeding now, and more than what they were getting on kibble.
 
It might be b/c it's new.  I didn't know many dogs had a hard time with this transitioning.
 
My boy has only been on it for a few weeks - so that might explain it well.
 
My girl started an elimination diet in October and has been on homecooked, but it was mostly the same foods until I started "challenging" in January - and had problems with the grains.
 
Technically, she should still be on the diet, but I just didn't like feeding her the same foods day in day out.  I did, however, figure out what her baseline was so that I could continue to challenge while giving a change of pace with both meats and veggies.  I really felt she needed a change.  She lost  7 lbs. almost immediately on that diet, and I have only put about 1 1/2 back on her. (ok, she was a little, tiny bit chunky to begin with).
 
So, anyway, I felt that I could now alternate food sources, watching carefully for reactions.  Eerrrggh, I didn't figure in the pollen being an issue.  [:@]  So, yep, she's environmentally challenged as well.
 
So, it's only been a few weeks with her since I started giving her a variety of foods.  And that might make the difference, too.
 
It is so hard seeing them be really hungry.  I know the difference with my guys.  I can tell when they just can't wait for their food and when they really, really, really are hungry.  There is a difference.  And it seems to vary between meals.  Always ready to eat, of course.  But every meal is unpredictable on whether they are just hungry or really super hungry.
 
But, she only weighs 30 lbs, and I can only put so many ounces in her plate at one time without feeling like it's just too much.
Same with her bigger brother. 
 
You know, it really looks about the amount that I eat in a serving.  Granted, I eat more than twice a day, but gee, I weigh alot more too.
 
OK, I'm rambling.  I'll just wait it out and see what happens and continue to give 3 meals on weekends.  Maybe things will get on an even keel in the next month.  Maybe it is the transitional thing going on.  I wonder why some dogs react that way?   Oh, well, Thanks for the suggestions and letting me ramble on.