Dog Community

Need big time MATH expert help

Lynn

Posted : 1/2/2007 10:05:56 PM

I have two questions I would appreciate help with, please.

1st question:

I am homecooking. I give calcium citrate - which is a more absorbable form that carbonate. I don't want to just give "extra" b/c calcium competes with magnesium (good for energy) on the cell receptor sites.

So, right now I am giving canned food. First question is that I went to nutrition data and found the food, clicked on "stewed" figuring it would compare best with canned. This canned food is all meat, no additives at all. The cooked piece yeilds from 1 lb. of raw boneless weighing 299 grams. The canned food does have bones according to the manufacturer (cooked so well you can't tell it). The can food is 13 oz, just shy of 1 lb. and weighs 375 grams.

So, obviously my canned food retains more moisture than stewed once you figure in the weight difference, bones, etc. OK, per lb. the stewed nutrition data shows about 600 mg. more phosporus than calcium. So, that would be 37.5 mg. of calcium that I would need to add per ounce of meat given.

BUT, there's so much more moisture in the can that the stewed version. And, the canned is less than a pound. So, since I give the citrate form (best absorbability) , I thought I would do a 1:1 ratio rather than a 2:1 calcium/phosporus ratio.    I'm thinking this would make it about a 1.25 calcium : 1.00 phosporus or even up to a 1.5 :1.00 ratio once this is factored in.      Ummm, does any of this sound about right to you guys?

2cd question:

So, it has, because of recent threads, occurred to me that I'm not feeding her nearly as much protein as I thought. I figured an all meat canned food would be more protein that it is.   So, for some reason I can't figure out, the percentages only add up to 95%. They told me that they put whole pieces of the food in the can and cook it, no additives. So, I guess the other 5% is nutrients????

Protein is 10%. Moisture is 78%. That makes the protein at 45%

Here's my second question. Let's say I give homecooked 4 ounces of well cooked grain that was cooked with a lot of water. I give 4 ounces of cooked veggies (carrot, broccoli,cauliflower,zuchinni), and I give only 3 ounces of meat.

I was thinking that she was getting 27% protein based on these figures. Actually, I figured it was less than that because I add in so much water to cook the grain so very well.     But, now that I know the canned food is only 45% protein.

So, is she only getting 45% of the 3 ounces, which would be 1.35 ounces?

How would you figure up how much protein that was. 4 oz grain, 4 oz veggie, 3 oz meat of which only 1.35 is protein.

I look at it two ways which come up to about the same amount, and I don't know if that is coincedence or not.

Method A) divide 1.35 into 11 oz === 12 % protein

Method B) take the original thought of it being 27% protein and times that by 45%, which is the amount of protein === 12% protein.

[

][

] Eeck, which is way less than what I thought she was getting.

How would you guys approach this problem solving?????

----------------------------------------------------------------

So, to get it around 20%, I would have to add in 6 oz of meat????

                                 4 oz well watered grain + 4 oz veggie + 6 oz meat ( which is 2.70 oz of protein) ==>   19% protein.

WOW,

I need another cup of coffee before I totally confuse myself. [8|]

Seriously, I truly appreciate any help / advise with this. I been thinking about this for a few days now. But, I'm really not sure if I've "got it all" understood.

Thanks very much,

Lynn

chelsea_b

Posted : 1/2/2007 10:30:50 PM

Wow, lots of good questions, and I'm no math expert, but I think I can help out. You're making me think though, which irks me, but I guess is a good thing. [

]

1:

This one confuses me most. I guessed your meat is rabbit. I'm looking at that on Nutrition Data. If the canned meat has bones in it, that adds calcium, so really you'd have to ask the manufacturer about calcium/phosphorous to be sure. But, I believe I read in another thread you're doing an elimination diet? I wouldn't kill yourself trying to figure out exact calcium and phosphorous for short term. If you're planning a diet to keep the dog on forever, then yeah, but if you're just doing 8-12 weeks or whatever, even up to 6 months I'd say, I wouldn't worry about having it exact. I think that 600 mg calcium per pound would be pretty safe though, even considering bones, because dogs are so adaptable, and even a little over 2:1 isn't going to cause problems, but I don't think if you only add 600 per pound you'd be over that.

2:

The food's values only add up to 95% because some (protein and fat, I believe) are minimums. That's why you'll sometimes see manufacturers list both "Guaranteed analysis" and "typically as fed", with the "typically" being slightly higher for protein and fat, and slightly lower for moisture and fiber.

The protein is low the way you're figuring because you're not calculating dry matter for the other ingredients. Veggies are 70-80% water, and I'm guessing cooked grains are too. I'm trying to do that math, and I think I'm coming up with protein being over 35%, dry matter, just from the meat (grains have a good amount of protein as well, but it's not "complete", meaning it's not as well absorbed or utilized).

Let's see.. 4 ounces grain, 4 ounces veggies, 3 ounces meat, that's 11 ounces total. Let's say all together, that's 70% moisture. So dry matter, you have 3.3 ounces of food. For some reason I can't do this last bit of math, but then you're left with 1.35 ounces meat protein out of that 3.3 ounces of food, which is a great amount of protein. 41%, maybe? lol I don't know why I can't do this.

I'm sure others will help out, and explain what I couldn't, but I'm hoping this is at least a little helpful.

Lynn

Posted : 1/2/2007 11:11:49 PM

You're good! You guessed right at rabbit.   While I mentioned bones being included, I didn't think of the calcium in them!! Thanks for mentioning that point.

Yes, we are on an elimination diet - but it's long term. We've been on it a few months now, and just started "challanging". I think it's going to be long term enough for me to get it right, and it just help me to understand things. I want to homecook more in the future when I can feed a variety, and this is good learning for me. But again, it's going to be long enough, and she is losing weight anyway, that I want to cover all the bases that I can.

And, thanks for explaining the mysterious loss of that 5% of ingredients!

OHHH, ok,

I was translating the meat into dry matter, but not the other. Whew. Sounds kinda silly, now. But, see how confusing this gets???

So, the grains are 75% water b/c I put in 6 oz grain to 24 oz. water. Veggies are 75% water ( I didn't know that). So, both these are 25% "matter".

The rabbit is 45% protein. So, I'm giving 1 oz each of veggie and grain "matter" == 2 oz. of dry matter basis.

                                                 And, 1.35 of protein (not meat, but the protein amount from the meat).

==============>>>>

                                           1.35 divided by 3.35 ===== 40 % protein    ??????????????

So, really, basically, if I upped the meat portion by once ounce, and gave 1/3 meat, 1/3 veggie, 1/3 grain   (without doing the math),
I would basically be giving 50% protein, instead of 33 % protein????

Wow.    Is that all correct????

chelsea_b

Posted : 1/2/2007 11:59:20 PM

Okay, wait. It's not 1.35 ounces of protein, because the 45% protein would be out of the dry matter, not wet weight. Oh my gosh my head hurts. So if you're using 3 ounces of the meat, at 10% protein as fed, that gives you .3 ounces protein, or 8.5 grams of protein?? That seems ridiculously low to me, but I think that's right. So 8.5 grams protein from meat per 11 ounces of food (still going on the original amounts). Is that right?? That's like...nothing. I must have done something wrong. Anyone know??

Lynn

Posted : 1/3/2007 12:08:41 AM

Ok, I'll be honest - you may be right, but I couldn't follow what you just said.

So, I originally got 45% from subtracting out the moisture from the canned rabbit. So, that means out of 3 oz, there is only 45% dry matter basis of protein, which is 1.35 oz.

10 % protein. Moisture 78%. 100 - 78 == 22. 10 % protein divided by 22% of stuff that's not water === 45% protein on a dry matter basis.

3 oz. of canned rabbit multiplied by the 45% of protein on a dry matter basis === 1.35 actual protein dry matter basis.

I think.

I also think it's past our bedtimes! lol [

]

It's getting to be really funny. We are going in circles very well, I think. [

]

Good night and See you tomorrow!!

Lynn

chelsea_b

Posted : 1/3/2007 12:21:32 AM

Ok, I'll be honest - you may be right, but I couldn't follow what you just said.

So, I originally got 45% from subtracting out the moisture from the canned rabbit. So, that means out of 3 oz, there is only 45% dry matter basis of protein, which is 1.35 oz.

Sorry, I didn't explain that well at all. Things sound so much better in my head than out of it. LOL!

Okay, let me try again. Let's forget protein for just a sec, and just do dry matter from 3 ounces of meat. 3 oz is about 85 grams. 85 grams times 22% dry matter equals 18.7 grams of meat. You can multiply that 18.7 grams by .45 (the 45% protein dry matter), or multiply 3 ounces wet weight by 10%, either way you get around 8.5 grams protein.

You can't multiply dry matter protein (45%) by wet weight whole food (3 oz, 85 grams). You either have to do wet protein amount (10%) by wet food amount (3 oz, 85 grams) or dry protein amount (45%) by total dry matter (18.7 grams, 2/3 oz). Does that make any sense?

Lynn

Posted : 1/3/2007 12:40:06 AM

Gosh, nooooooo.

Now you're throwing in things like grams. EEEEEEEEEEeckkkkkkkkkk she says, screaming and running from the room.

Darn, I have apparently missed an entire day's lesson here.

Not a clue about grams. Kinda like where I was when I didn't understand about calcium and phos. Total newbie with grams. Drat. I thought I was starting to understand this, but now I feel like I've just had to start the semester all over again.

I'll think about it tomorrow.

In the meantime, while out for the last piddle, my mind went back to question #1. I know you said the calcium should be alright, but I'm thinking that if I'm not even feeding 1/2 in protein of the amount of meat I am feeding, then I should 1/2 the amount of calcium that I have been giving.

I'll re-think that again tomorrow.

Anybody have the class notes on grams??? lol. (have my head resting on my keyboard now. Wondering how well I'm going to sleep after all this).

chelsea_b

Posted : 1/3/2007 12:46:49 AM

LOL! I'm sorry.. I didn't mean to make things any worse! One ounce is about 28 grams (more like 28.375, but you get it..). When I get down to .3 ounces, I can't picture that, but 8.5 grams is more managable to me, obviously not to everyone though! [

]

Stacita

Posted : 1/3/2007 6:47:38 AM

You need to get information from the canned food manufacturer if it's not on the label because you don't know how much bone is in there. So if you have the grams of protien and fat you will know how much is bone (doggie fiber per say).

You can use the USDA site or a diet book to get the protien/carbs/fats of your other foods, using either cooked or uncooked forms. Do consider the protien because you are also using a meat source with all the amino acids so the carbs will convert to protien.

So for example if a three ounce portion of your canned food has 11 grams protien, you add four ounces of cooked brown rice (32 grams carbs & 3 protien) and 1/4 cup of cooked squash (2 grams carbs) and a tablespoon of olive oil you'd have approximately 14 grams protien, 34 grams of carbs & 14 grams of fat. Carbs & protien both have four calories per gram and fat has 9 calories per gram.

So in this sample meal you'd have 56 calories protien, 136 calories carbs & 126 calories fat for a total of 318 calories. So you then take 56 divided by 318 = 17.6 percent protien, 136 divided by 318 = 42.7 percent carbs and 126 divided by 318 = 39.6 percent fat.

That's how I figure it anway. As for adding calcium, if they are getting bones etc. I'd go on the somewhat light side and rely on blood work to tell you if things are in balance.

Lynn

Posted : 1/3/2007 10:09:14 AM

Thank you Stacita.

Between what you and Chelsea said, maybe it will make sense to me if i keep reading it. [8|] I think it will, I've just got to give it time to sink in!

Lynn