water retrieves - ideas needed

You should join Schutzhund, train him to run blinds, lol!  Whenever normal training and exercise doesn't wear out Nikon I just have him run blinds, over and over....

Does mental exercise wear him out?  For example in Schutzhund often we incorporate obedience and self-control into other HIGH drive exercises.  Like in protection work we will do "obedience bites" where the decoy/helper is out but the dog needs to do an impromptu heeling pattern or some other exercises under control and then the handler gives the "packen!" (bite) command as the reward.  I have done this with Nikon before where I toss his toy into the water but he has to do some obedience for me before I release him to jump. Some times the self control exercises even for short periods really wear out the dog, if they are in a high state of drive and you're capping that drive, just building in obedience and control.  Of course this would probably only work the times where there isn't other water fowl around and he's aroused by the Dokken.

A few thoughts that may help.  First stop retrieving before you see the loss of focus.  You'll have to learn when that is by watching him and it can change from day to day.  I never make the last retrieve a strict one.  The last retrieve is a "happy bumper". No rules, high excitement on your part and crazy happy praise when he returns.  Then put the dokken away.  I know you are trying to tire him but if he is becoming bored he may lose his desire to retrieve completely.  Leave him wanting more.  You may have to break up the retrieving sessions with a brisk walk around the lake and then some more retrieving to keep his interest strong.  

See if this duck season you can get some dead ducks from some hunters. Unfortunately, lots of hunters don't eat what they kill.  Freeze them and use for retrieving.  They don't need to be cleaned.  Make sure they aren't blown to smithereens or he may eat them. They won't hold up long before they have to be tossed but it can add a whole new excitement to the game.  The potential problem with some dogs, especially dogs without a strongly instilled desire to retrieve from puppyhood, is they may refuse anything but the real thing once you've thrown them a bird.  I saw this often with retrievers from mostly show lines and/or dogs who weren't started early on retrieving.   I know Bugsy didn't like to retrieve until he got his dokken duck.

Will he retrieve his dokken if you throw it on land?  You can start him on some simple doubles if he'll do that.  You would need two dokkens for that training.

 thanks Lies for the ideas the thing is I am trying to do at least one day a week in the water - I feel it is the best thing for his knees and I cannot pretend that they aren't an issue. My goal with the water work is to provide him with a day of no pounding.

JackieG

I never make the last retrieve a strict one.  The last retrieve is a "happy bumper". No rules, high excitement on your part and crazy happy praise when he returns.

As for the crazy happy praise - oh yea he's getting plenty of that and he is still crazy for the Dokken when we quit (he tries to get it out of my shoulder bag as we head back to the car.

He will retrieve the dokken on land and I can get another - in the meantime I have a wubba 'friend' that is his squirrel (very high value toy for him) and we can start some doubles.  We had actually started them before the knee problem surfaced.

But this brings the pounding on his knees back into the equation - his version of land retrieving is bordering violent.  He goes so hard after whatever it is he is to retrieve that he flips/slides/pounces/tumbles/rollsover/etc. I spend the entire time dreading each arrival at the toy.

OMG I don't think he would bring me back a duck but it sure would be fun, I'll look into that!  I have a vision of him swimming out to it grabbing it and swimming away to somewhere to eat it 

kpwlee

OMG I don't think he would bring me back a duck but it sure would be fun, I'll look into that!  I have a vision of him swimming out to it grabbing it and swimming away to somewhere to eat it 

Don't start out with a real bird in the water!  On land, short throws and he's on lead and you have an anchor attached to your butt. lol

That Wolters book should have a section on how to start doubles.  It probably starts on land for both birds but in your case, do one on land (short thrown bird) and the second one in the water. He picks up the last bird thrown first and then the bird on land.  I'll send you a pm or email with more detailed info.  I should be working but I got sucked in here somehow. lol

ETA  The object (I use the word bird from habit) thrown on land for B doesn't have to be thrown far.  To save the pounding on his knees.  Maybe you can find something he will retrieve but isn't insane about for the land thrown object.  Doubles makes dogs think and use their memory.  I agree with Lies about having him do some obedience (heeling, here and sit in front and finish at heel) exercises in between some of the retrieving to settle him down and keep him thinking.

I read an article, recently, by Petra Ford (who owns NOC OTCH Tyler, and is a physical therapist for animals), that said to NEVER allow a dog to chase a moving object, if you're trying to avoid injury. She said to have the dog wait until the object has totally stopped, then send the dog. I tried it, with Bean, and it has made her frisby fetching wildness FAR less insane and hazardous. She no longer does trip and rolls. She still loooooooves to fetch, but she's actually thinking about how she moves, now.

 Thanks Jackie I do recall the basics of doubles and BTW the Wolters book has some interesting moments LOL

Jennie thanks for the idea but Bugsy is worse when he has to wait until the object lands, his intensity gets higher.  But at least he doesn't try to fly to catch it before it lands He is frighteningly fast for a 100lb dog and its the momentum that winds up causing him to tumble.

Oh and I agree that intermittent obedience is a good idea.  I do it sometimes but will have to be more methodical about it.

 Anybody training hunting dogs to retrieve will tell you to stop when the dog wants more.  There is also "force fetch" training, which teaches the dog that the retrieve is not an option.  Pressure is applied to the dog (read "pain" in some instances) which the dog reduces by retrieving properly.  Never tried to force train one of my dogs.  I always preferred reward and fun.

As for a real bird, I can trust neiko with a real bird, but I wouldn't trust lily with one. She would take it and eat it. You know bugsy better than we do.

 DougB I know the concept of forced retrieves and wouldn't cause my boy pain - to be honest probably not possible LOL

OK let me try to explain what it's like.  It is hard to get his full attention on anything - ever.  We have to have a few intro throws to get him on the dokken instead of all the other smells and then he gets really into the retrieves but there isn't any point where he swims straight back without looking around.  If he hears a boater turn up or voices or a hawk or geese or......he looks around.  He comes back and wants more desperately and swims straight to the dokken but the way back he is distracted.

I posted this because after a number of throws (which varies) he is sort of retrieving in his sleep ie he is still all about getting the dokken but he clearly starts spending more time looking around, I thought that indicated boredom. He is still berserk for the dokken, in fact he is more intense about the dokken and he starts wanting to shred it and I do obedience at that point to try to get him less wild.

I don't know there are times I just feel like such a failure with him, for him.

Julie I will likely try a real duck if I can get one just to see how it goes, I think he'll completely destroy it.

One last thought - tonight I was out with him and we were playing with a wubba. DH is working late so he wasn't home, B was a crazy boy at play but if he heard a vehicle (we live on a cul de sac & you can see the road he would approach from through the neighbor's shrubs) he would be staring through the shrubs to see if it was DH while at the same time jumping up and down wanting me to throw the wubba.  I waited each time for his butt to hit the ground before throwing it which gave me an opportunity to watch what he was thinking about or focusing on.

I don't know may be we are both hopeless 

 Julie I am going to order some 'wings' in order to work on his pointing and was planning on tying them to a bumper

A Dokken is a fake duck used to teach proper retrieves