How do you motivate a party girl?

 Are you hand-feeding her? If not, then its time to start. Hand feed her for attention and focus starting off around no to little distractions and then work your way up.

Are you taking classes with her? That will help expose her to 'listen to mom, no matter what else is happening'.

Do you mean hand feed her her dinner? That I don't do; but I do allot of training with her and I use a clicker and treats.

I've had Veronica since she was 10 weeks old. I put her in puppy class at 12 weeks and we have taken one class or another without a break for 4 years.

 Now we are doing an agility class and a rally class each once a week. She had been doing really well in rally ignoring the other dogs; so I decided to switch and go to a new rally class at a new place...and it really was 3 steps back for her. She did Ok once she got to run the course for the second time but she was still very hyper and distracted by the new place and the new dogs.

Problems in agility involve getting distracted and taking off and sniffing. When she's focused she can run a course with zero mistakes. It's just always a crap shoot as to what she will do.

 With Rally when she's "on" she's uber focused with a nice little prance; when she's "off" it's wanting to sniff about and  focus on anything other than me; and obviously because of this we're no where near close to getting to the off leash stuff. And bcause she's so inconsistent, I can't wean her off treats.

 At our old rally class where she was acclimated I was trying to wean her off treats. We'd get one good treatless run, the second time she'd just look at me and take a minute to respond (as if she we're saying, "really? I really have to do this"?) and the third time she was more distracted and she would bark before doing commands and throw herself down if she had to down or sit (which is Veronica's "nose out of joint, thoroughly put out, over the top dramatic version of protesting)

Veronica's Mom

 With Rally when she's "on" she's uber focused with a nice little prance; when she's "off" it's wanting to sniff about and  focus on anything other than me; and obviously because of this we're no where near close to getting to the off leash stuff. And bcause she's so inconsistent, I can't wean her off treats.

Do you mean wean her off treats altogether? Personally, I wouldn't wean my dog off the reward, not if I wanted a decent level of drive from my dog. Instead I increase the amount of time I can go without needing to reward, but I also reward my dog when she isn't expecting it. If I make when and where she'll get the reward unpredictable, it helps to keep her 'hanging on'.

I had a similar problem to you about 18 months ago. I couldn't get more than a few seconds of focus from my dog, everything else was more interesting.

I have done a lot of one on one work with a trainer to build my dog's drive. I got her giving 110% in low distraction environments before moving on to anywhere as distracting as obedience club. And in the early days my training sessions would be full on, ask for 110% but would go for no more than 1-3 minutes max. If I went to do a training session with her and she didn't switch on when I ask her to, I walked away. She lost the opportunity to earn the reward if she didn't switch on.

We can work on and off for a couple of hours now with no problem but if you want that level where she switches on easily you need to build it slowly. I also find hour long classes detrimental to my dog, naturally over an hour of working her attention will wane and why not? Classes can be boring and repetitious with loads of more interesting things going on around them - in my dog's case, she actually learnt that training was boring and a time to switch off and self reward by scenting instead.

I always leave my dog hanging at the end of a training session wanting more. I never wait for her to lose interest. I don't feed her training treats outside of training sessions and I don't feed her before training either, or if I do, it's a small meal in the morning and a training session that night. It's taken time to build her drive but we are at a point now where she is very reliable and I know when we go to training, I will have no problem working her.

I would first get the focus and response you want from her without distractions and then s-l-o-w-l-y add distractions.  You may be expecting too much too soon, and risk her making a habit of blowing you off or not working with drive and focus when it's her turn on the course.  My "barometer" so to speak is whether I can trust the dog off leash.  I don't put my dogs into rally or agility - even beginner - until I know I could do the class off leash without my dog running off or fixating on other people and dogs.  Nikon was about 18 months old before I took him to rally class and 20 months before agility.  My Coke turns 4 next week and still is not doing competitive training because he is so social.  The training progresses so much better for you and the dog when you aren't competing to hold the dog's attention.  There's no rush.

It can also just be the dog's nature.  I don't think my Coke will ever do competitive events even at the Novice level because he gets more enjoyment out of being with other people and dogs.  He only gets excited about going to training class because he *might* be able to sneak in a sniff at another dog or a pat from another person.  We've tried the very basic levels of training and it just doesn't motivate him; he's not a dog that works for the sake of working (opposite of my shepherds).  I've kind of given up on his training for rally and agility, but I see it more as coming to terms with who he is than giving up.  He doesn't *need* that much mental stimulation to be happy, he's perfectly happy being a pet and doing for a daily walk.

huski

Do you mean wean her off treats altogether? Personally, I wouldn't wean my dog off the reward, not if I wanted a decent level of drive from my dog. Instead I increase the amount of time I can go without needing to reward, but I also reward my dog when she isn't expecting it. If I make when and where she'll get the reward unpredictable, it helps to keep her 'hanging on'.

 I was trying to not use treats on the course to prepare for competing; I gave her treats afterwards.

The thing with Veronica...is she can have decent focus in certain situations. Here is a video of a Rally run; where I think overall we did well. Granted it was a novice course; but if she could do this at a trial I would be pleased. But I doubt...very much so...that she will do this at a trial. For one thing, she is very familiar with this training center and very comfortable - she's gone here since she was a puppy. She's acclimated to the place, the people and the other dogs. Secondly...she was really into it on this day. Some days she is. Other days it's like, "I'm not in the mood, I have a headache - talk to the paw" I wish I knew what got her jazzed on the days she's into it so I could build on it.

You have made an excellent point about not treating/feeding her prior to practice. I have noticed she is more motivated if she is hungry BUT that only applies if she is comfortable. A new place with new distractions seems to trump hunger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwzR5N-smw

 I understand what you mean liesje; about getting the basics really solid before you start other activities. With Veronica my purpose in everything was just to have fun and keep her socialized. But as I've gotten exposed to rally and agility I've started to get competative...like..."we can do that I KNOW WE CAN"!!!! - if only Veronica would cooperate! I know we're never gonna win first place ribbons - that is not in her nature; but I think we are capable of making a decent showing if only I can make her WANT to!

Here is an agility practice video. You see how she gets distracted in the beginning - but she comes right back (not always the case); and you can see she is capable of focusing and following my lead - but not consistently! If I took her to a trial it is highly likely I would get head-up-her-butt distracted Veronica especially because it is a new place. I guess I need to figure out how to slowly de-sentsitize her to distractions...but some of it feels out of my control...for example, if I take her to a new training place - it automatically comes with new smells, plus new people and new dogs....I'm not sure how to introduce new distractions incrementally.

(BTW; if I look like I am making this run more complicated than it should be; my trainer choreographed it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhLpIB86IOc

Veronica's Mom

I was trying to not use treats on the course to prepare for competing; I gave her treats afterwards.

I do obedience so I have the same "problem" - no food within 4 metres of the ring - but it's actually not often I will do a full run out without food on me or without treating at some point.

I like to keep my dog guessing, when something becomes predictable that's when she'll get bored, so I will often break out and treat her when she's not expecting it i.e. when we line up at the start peg and she's just gotten into heel position, during a heel pattern, after a down etc.

Here's an example to show you what I mean (excuse my bad handling).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2vsHum1zGg

It's also an example of the way I keep my training sessions short (even if we train on and off for an hour or more) - before this I had her on a tie out which built her frustration as all she wanted to do was train with me. This meant that when I came over and asked if she was ready to work she was bursting at the seams to get going. She's not a particularly high drive dog, either.

The thing with Veronica...is she can have decent focus in certain situations. Here is a video of a Rally run; where I think overall we did well. Granted it was a novice course; but if she could do this at a trial I would be pleased. But I doubt...very much so...that she will do this at a trial. For one thing, she is very familiar with this training center and very comfortable - she's gone here since she was a puppy. She's acclimated to the place, the people and the other dogs. Secondly...she was really into it on this day. Some days she is. Other days it's like, "I'm not in the mood, I have a headache - talk to the paw" I wish I knew what got her jazzed on the days she's into it so I could build on it.

You have made an excellent point about not treating/feeding her prior to practice. I have noticed she is more motivated if she is hungry BUT that only applies if she is comfortable. A new place with new distractions seems to trump hunger.

Nice vid :) 

I used to be able to wave steak under my dog's nose around distractions and she wouldn't even notice it!

I understand what you mean liesje; about getting the basics really solid before you start other activities. With Veronica my purpose in everything was just to have fun and keep her socialized. But as I've gotten exposed to rally and agility I've started to get competative...like..."we can do that I KNOW WE CAN"!!!! - if only Veronica would cooperate! I know we're never gonna win first place ribbons - that is not in her nature; but I think we are capable of making a decent showing if only I can make her WANT to!

I do agree with Liesje - don't ask her to run before she can walk. You said above that new places/distractions trump hunger, so get her giving short bouts of focus consistently  in those places before moving on or making the training session longer.

It's not about desensitizing her to distractions (IMO) when my dog is switched on, she doesn't even notice what's going on around us.

This is an interesting read.  Anne posted it a while back.  I'm not saying your dog isn't enjoying the activities you want to compete in but it is food for thought.

http://community.dog.com/forums/t/105858.aspx

Wow Huski - THAT is intense focus.

Even when I feel like I have Veronica's attention; I feel like I have to keep talking to her to KEEP her focused on me or I'll lose her.

 Interesting article by Clothier; and I think it does apply to a point. I think Veronica does enjoy what we do well enough...until I pressure her to work harder and do better.

 She is not a dog that takes corrections well; she is very sensitive. I only use verbal corrections...but even then...tell her she's done something wrong...and I may as well have said "I'm dropping you off at the pound"...she gets sulky and shuts down.

Thanks :) to put it in perspective, here's a before vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM_O9HJzhV0

For me it wasn't about forcing my dog to do something they don't enjoy, but finding a way to make it exciting. I can make the most boring things fun for my dog because training itself is super exciting.

Thank you! You've given me some new ideas on how to practice attention and heel.

Veronica's Mom

Wow Huski - THAT is intense focus.

Even when I feel like I have Veronica's attention; I feel like I have to keep talking to her to KEEP her focused on me or I'll lose her.

 Interesting article by Clothier; and I think it does apply to a point. I think Veronica does enjoy what we do well enough...until I pressure her to work harder and do better.

 She is not a dog that takes corrections well; she is very sensitive. I only use verbal corrections...but even then...tell her she's done something wrong...and I may as well have said "I'm dropping you off at the pound"...she gets sulky and shuts down.

Why are you feeling like you are "pressuring" her?   I don't exactly know what you mean by that, but if she doesn't "take corrections well" then maybe you should give them up!   Try to think about using a marker word to tell her when she's right - then follow up with whatever she does like as a reinforcement.  That could be a treat, a toy, you making a big deal of her till her butt is wiggling in a knot.  But, the marker ends the behavior - anything she does after you say the marker word is ok!!!  Next, you very gradually lengthen the time she does the required behavior by waiting even a millisecond more at a time before she gets the marker word.  If she fails, say nothing (or use a no reward marker such as "oops";) and just try again.  Also, to test whether she lacks food motivation, or is simply too shut down, distracted, or frightened in the environment, do some training in a safe, familiar place like your own kitchen.  Does she take food there?  If the answer is yes, you may simply be dealing with a dog that is too anxious to eat.  Corrections magnify that, and it's usually an indication that you didn't build behavior gradually enough and in ever more distracting environments.  Some dogs can't go directly from the kitchen to the training field and do well.  Some need to go kitchen to basement to garage to back yard to down the street to....well, you get the drift.

spiritdogs

Why are you feeling like you are "pressuring" her?   I don't exactly know what you mean by that, but if she doesn't "take corrections well" then maybe you should give them up!   Try to think about using a marker word to tell her when she's right - then follow up with whatever she does like as a reinforcement.  That could be a treat, a toy, you making a big deal of her till her butt is wiggling in a knot.  But, the marker ends the behavior - anything she does after you say the marker word is ok!!!  Next, you very gradually lengthen the time she does the required behavior by waiting even a millisecond more at a time before she gets the marker word.  If she fails, say nothing (or use a no reward marker such as "oops";) and just try again.  Also, to test whether she lacks food motivation, or is simply too shut down, distracted, or frightened in the environment, do some training in a safe, familiar place like your own kitchen.  Does she take food there?  If the answer is yes, you may simply be dealing with a dog that is too anxious to eat.  Corrections magnify that, and it's usually an indication that you didn't build behavior gradually enough and in ever more distracting environments.  Some dogs can't go directly from the kitchen to the training field and do well.  Some need to go kitchen to basement to garage to back yard to down the street to....well, you get the drift.

By pressuring her I mean withholding rewards in the hopes of getting improved performance or saying "eh eh" - which means "actually you didn't do that right, try again". If Veronica tries something a time or 2 and you're not all "OMG!! What a great and amazing dog you are; here have a treat" she gets discouraged. If you communicate to her that she didn't do it right and could she try again; she gets super discouraged after a time or 2 and will want to quit.

So I guess the answer is to work in incremements and try to get her to make tiny improvements I can praise; but it's frustrating. She is not the kind of dog that will work harder to get a reward...she'll get discouraged and quit. I don't know if this is connected temperment wise...but I have never been able to free shape her with the clicker. You know how they say dogs will throw out different behaviors to see if they can get a click and a reward? Not Veronica. She just lays down and looks at me like, "if you don't know what you want me to do how the hell do you expect me to know"???

When I say corrections; I mean verbal corrections; which are the only kind I use (and I don't mean anything harsh, like BAD DOG; I just mean "eh - eh";). But if I have to keep telling her she is doing something wrong and aren't telling her she is doing something right and falling all over her with lavish praise...she shuts down. I think I know what you mean about using a reward marker and then lengthening the duration of the behavior...the thing is how to go about correcting an incorrect behavior. For example; in rally she will often give a sloppy front sit or a crooked down...I want it "straight"...if I hold off on the reward and "pressure" her to improve her performance (by asking her to try again)...she tends to get discouraged and instead of working harder...mentally checks out. Or in agility...if she goes up the A-frame when she was supposed to go in the tunnel...and I tell her "No" - wrong place; do this instead - I have to be very careful about being critical...but at the same time - I need her to know when she isn't doing something right. Does that make sense?

 As far as the food is concerned...she'll happily take it; the thing is I want her to work without food so we can eventually compete. (meaning do the rally course THEN get your treat vs. me dangling the reward under her nose the entire time; and pay attention to me and run the whole agility course; don't just follow me because I'm dispensing roast beef treats after ever third obstacle) I think maybe we just aren't there yet and I need to reward her during practice as needed and get the performance I want and forget about whether or not we'll ever compete.