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    • Gold Top Dog

    I will Auburn, thank you! I guess Gingerbread was just having a good day yesterday. Last night he started shivering again and today he's been "so so". He groans when he stands up or lays down or stretches. Right now he's laying down looking depressed. :(

    • Gold Top Dog

    I took Gingerbread for a re-check and saw a different vet. He gave me more indepth information- on the x-ray it shows some mineralization on his spine, so that means this has developed over time. The diagnosis is "suspect IVDD" (Invertebral disc disease), but this is a mild case so that's good and I'm glad to have more info.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Luvntzus
    this is a mild case so that's good and I'm glad to have more info.

     

      I'm glad you have a better understanding of what's wrong. Did he tell you if there's a way to prevent the disease from getting worse? Did he explain why he was in pain yesterday even though he's taking pain meds?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Oh, wow, I'm really sorry.  I hope you get a good prognosis and a game plan that will give him good quality of life again.  I've had an older dog with spine problems and Lulu has arthritis of the spine - both responded well to periodic use of steroids for flareups, strict rest during that time, then maintenance supplements.  Lu's on GlycoFlex III, which has GAGs and some herbal anti-inflammatories, and Cetyl-M, which actually reverses calcification and collagen loss.  Neither was available when I had Greg but he did well on a liquid GAG supplement.

    For the ramp, for a little dog it works well if you just get a nice wide board (at least 24";) and have them cut it about three feet long, and then purchase a carpet scrap or a piece of runner carpet (you can get it by the linear foot at most places).  Cover the board with the carpet, fold it over, and staple it firmly in place.  It's nice if you can pick something that matches the apartment.  :)  Then you can simply prop the board up when you want him to climb on the couch, or the bed. 

    Teach Peanut to go up and down the board too - it's better for the little dogs if they don't do much jumping up and down anyway. 

    I've taught Zhi to ask to be picked up rather than jump in my lap, and she's not allowed to jump down on her own.  She does jump up and down off the furniture though - she a nutcase and it would be really difficult if I were in your place, with her - she'd have to be crate rested, no bones about it.

    Good luck!
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Luvntzus
    I guess Gingerbread was just having a good day yesterday.

    You may have to choose between keeping Gingerbread pain-free and getting him well as quickly as possible.

    Pain is a warning that something is wrong and to slow down so healing can take place.  Some vets even minimize pain meds to keep an animal from becoming too active.

    Pain meds and anti-inflammatories may have resulted in Gingerbread overdoing it yesterday because he felt too good.  If that happened he may have been paying for today. 

    Is he on cage rest? 

    • Gold Top Dog

    The vet didn't say anything about how to keep the disease from getting worse. I've been trying to take it all in. I need to call back and talk to the vet with questions that have come up.

    Gingerbread isn't on cage rest. I have all the furniture blocked off. I can put him up on the couch because I have it barricaded so he can't jump down. Right now he's laying next to me on the floor (I have my laptop on the coffee table). He's been staying put wherever I put him. If he starts getting more active then I'm going to put him in the bedroom with a babygate up. He just lays there looking out. I've been watching Peanut and putting him in his puppy pen when I can't. This is the best solution that I've found. Gingerbread is claustrophobic and would be more active and worked up trying to get out of the crate.

    Edited to add that he hasn't been shivering tonight and he's still being sedentary. So I think maybe he's not in a lot of pain, but is still a little uncomfortable.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Luvntzus
    Edited to add that he hasn't been shivering tonight and he's still being sedentary. So I think maybe he's not in a lot of pain, but is still a little uncomfortable.

    Keeping him a little uncomfortable sounds like the way to go right now.  I would reduce his pain meds if he doesn't stay sedentary.  That may sound mean to some, but it is the only way he knows that his back is still damaged. 

    Luvntzus
    Gingerbread is claustrophobic and would be more active and worked up trying to get out of the crate.

    Claustrophobic or just not fully crate-trained?  Some dogs need slow, patient crate-training.  First you make it a fun den for a while (no door?).

    Then you literally start with closing the door and promptly re-opening it.  You work up in seconds if necessary.  When he is comfortable in the crate for 15 minutes, then you start over with closing the door, walking out of his sight, coming back, and opening the door.  Etc.

    Note:  Anybody like the idea of sleeping on the floor the their vet's office?  Some owners have actually had to do that to keep their dogs from breaking nails and teeth.  Once you have gone through that, you will go to great lengths to be sure that your dogs are crate-trained.

    Luvntzus
    The vet didn't say anything about how to keep the disease from getting worse.

    Please address this question to the the Dodger's List folks as well.  The folks running that list deal with more IVDD dogs than any single vet.  Getting IVDD dogs to heal and to stay well is what they specialize in.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Poor Gingerbread - I've been following the thread and hoping that it wouldn't be a chronic thing :(

    I had a client who's toy poodle had back surgery and needed strict crate rest. They bought a XL crate (maybe Lab sized?) so that she could have some 'room' but couldn't jump around. Maybe that would work?

    • Gold Top Dog

     For some odd reason suddenly I can't 'link' to anything with Firefox so I'll copy this here for you -- it's an article by Dr. Roger Clemmons (University of Florida Vet School).  He's the head neurosurgeon  AND he's also done a ton of work on doxies (IVDD) and german shepherds (DM) and dobies (Wobblers).  Pirate's Mom and I have both had our dogs up to the Chi Institute (near Gainesville) and Dr. Clemmons also teaches there:

     

    Integrative Treatment of Dogs with Intervertebral Disc Disease

    R.M. Clemmons, DVM, PhD
    Associate Professor of Neurology & Neurosurgery
    Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences

    Introduction:

    Although intervertebral disc (IVD) disease in chondrodystrophic breeds (like Dachshunds) is a surgical disease. See Paralysis of the Rear Legs. There are a number of things which might help delay the degeneration of the IVD and minimize the effects of herniation of the IVD if it happens. Vitamin E is a potent anti-oxidant which, when given before spinal cord injury, can prevent or markedly reduce the effects of spinal cord trauma. Spinal cord signs from IVD disease are due to two factors: 1) the presence of space-occupying compression from the herniated IVD material and 2) internal damage of the spinal cord due to vascular damage and subsequent expansion of that damage from ischemia (diminished blood flow) and tissue destruction secondary to lipid peroxidation and oxidant free-radical production. The latter effect is where vitamin E acts. Unfortunately, effective levels of vitamin E require several days to achieve; so, while vitamin E given before an injury is effective, it is ineffective when given during or shortly after the trauma.

    The IVD represents one of the "joints" for connection of vertebrae. While the metamorphosis which takes place in the nucleus pulposus is genetically programmed, the degeneration occurs secondary to the decrease in IVD elasticity. This transmits greater shock to the IVD causing progressive damage. It may not be possible to completely stop this process of damage, but reducing inflammation caused by this damage and providing nutrient support to the cartilaginous structures in the IVD has the potential to delay the onset of IVD disease. Recent studies have shown that there is regeneration of disc material. As such, IVD disease is because degeneration wins out over the natural regenerative (healing) process. Increasing the changes of regeneration (healing) may be the only choice other than surgery. This will not happen overnight and must be part of the of the patients life-long treatment.

    Don't forget that while a number of dogs will recover from IVD disease with cage rest for a minimum of 30 days or 3 weeks beyond the time it takes them to return to normal function without the aid of medication, early surgery gives the best chance for them to regain neurologic function. This is particularly true if they are paralyzed. If they have sudden or rapid onset of paralysis with decreased or absent pain sensation caudal to the lesion, then emergency surgical intervention is critical to optimize their chances of recovery. This will include giving IV anti-oxidant, corticosteroids (Solu Medral or Solu Delta Cortef). On the other hand, once the initial problem is treated, the patient still must heal. The principles of integrative medicine apply, demanding that all modalities which are available be employed in returning the dog to health. As such, besides conventional medicines and surgery, attention must be given to physical therapies (including physical therapy, acupuncture and message therapy) and dietary and nutritional support. Even though dietary supplementation may help prevent IVD disease development, it is also important in speeding the recovery of the patient once IVD herniation has occurred.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++(End of his article that I've copied -- full article at: http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/AltMed/WienerDog/IVD_AltMed.htm

    Acupuncture can hugely help reduce the inflammation from this and keep it from worsening so fast.  http://www.tcvm.com -- there is a locator on the left -- put in your state or zip code and it will help you find someone near you.  Honestly, acupuncture likely may help you avoid surgery - at least for as long as possible.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Just got back from a weekend away.  I am glad, at least, that they know what is wrong with Gingerbread and you can go from there.  I am so sorry and I feel both your pain.  Am praying that things for go well and smooth for both of you.  Big hugs for you and Gingerbread.  i just don't know what else to say and I'd never give you advice on what to do.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    janet_rose

    Claustrophobic or just not fully crate-trained?  Some dogs need slow, patient crate-training.  First you make it a fun den for a while (no door?).

    Gingerbread is 3 1/2 and I started crate training him as a puppy. Some dogs truly are claustrophobic and Gingerbread seems to be one of them. I've successfully crate trained several other puppies, including my Chihuahua, Peanut.

    The Dodger's list slipped my mind- thank you Janet for mentioning that again! I'm going straight there to join.

    • Gold Top Dog

    We hope Gingerbread gets well soon.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Here is a list of books/videos on canine massage, chiropractic, and acupressure:

    http://community.dog.com/forums/p/81145/634972.aspx#634972

    • Silver

    Sending prayers hugs and pets

    • Gold Top Dog

    Luvntzus
    The Dodger's list slipped my mind- thank you Janet for mentioning that again! I'm going straight there to join.

    How is Gingerbread doing?  What ideas did the Dodger's List folks have for your?