AIHA or IMHA

I tend to agree with you about the cyclo -- Billy was always SO inflamed every single time that his never really had a chance to be 'low'.

 Got an email back from OSU about the CBC, she says to lower the Cyclo and we'll see where things are in another 6 weeks.

 She didn't seem overly concerned about the low reading.

 Good to hear these numbers are getting lower Mike.  The lymphocytes are the wbc that you are currently attempting to suppress (killer-T cells more specifically).  Unfortunately in IMHA, these t-cells are often the ones that have gone crazy and have lost their ability to recognize the own body's cells as opposed to foreign cells.  Quieting them down is very important!  The other two types of WBC being the Granulocytes .... shows up with a grainy look when stained for a microscope. They target bacteria, fungi and can be active during allergic reactions and Monocytes ....most often the "clean up" wbc, the maid like stuff.  They also collect stuff that they think the immune system needs to protect against and alert the immune system so it can either produce antibodies or destroy. 

Cyclosporine is more tailored to suppress just these killer T cells that are responsible for the destruction of the rbc's.  So if these numbers are going down doesn't this show that the cyclo is serving it's purpose.  I know that with Tessy it wasn't until her lymph #'s started to drop that we would see larger increases in her HCT.  In fact, her last test showed an increase in HCT up to 34 from 29 and on this last test her lymphocyte numbers were far lower than they've ever been.  I also wanted to lower Tessy's cyclosporine a while back....mostly due to the cost....but Dr. Dodds wants to keep her on this drug till the last because of the way it suppresses only these specific cells.  The low numbers are a good thing I was told.  She also stated that although all drugs have their side effects cyclosporine is not near as bad as azathioprine or especially prednisone.  That's why she wanted to leave the cyclo and lower the others first.    ....I think the levels targeted are between 100-500/cu mL for proper suppression of the lymphocytes according to Dr. Dodds.

I'm not sure if this is of any help to you.  Since Clop's PCV is within normal range it might not matter as much.  The good thing is that he is responding to the meds and that even more importantly you are getting rid of some of the meds in his system.

Keep us informed.  Great to hear he's doing good.

High paws from Tessy.

Johnny & Tessy

 Thanks Johnny.  After what you've said and what my Vet said I am feeling pretty darn good about her latest CBC.  She's wanting me to go to a 6 week CBC and do Chemistry every other time.  Her liver values are now almost normal, as close to normal as you can get with her being on this much Cyclo.  Once those come down to the normal range and her Iron is in normal range she'll have a perfect blood work.

Appreciate all you wrote Johnny and I agree with how Dr Dodds chooses to use Cyclo only vs Pred and Aza.  I had a lot of doubts about it going into this but I can't argue with the results.  

Have a great rest of your weekend and a big hi to Tessy from me and Clops =)

Mike

Sounds really good for Clop! 

Just FYI -- I've talked to you a bunch about how we've used homeopathy/homotoxicology to help re-teach Billy's body how to deal with the immune system going "on/off" the way it should and one of the ways they do that is specifically by isolating stuff that helps balance the T-Cells and particularly help them re-learn what's normal.  They don't do this via medication but rather with homeopathic amounts of the substance that triggers the T-cells on/off mechanism combined to make a serum specifically for that unique dog. 

But that's the reason for the ultra ultra long wean off program in any event -- specifically so the drug is phased out slowly enough so that the body literally doesn't "miss" it and begin to re-attack the body.

Callie, I wish Tessy could get a chance to see/use a TCVM.  I followed all the links you gave in earlier posts to find one near me but the closest one I could find was in Ontario.  My luck I suppose.  It just sounds so promising.  Too bad there weren't more people practicing it.  I've e-mailed a few of them in hopes that maybe they might be able to help with some information or advise but I haven't heard back from them yet.

I got a question for you.....may be a stupid one.....but anywho.....What is it that makes the body "stop" attacking it's own cells?  If we suppress the cells responsible enough is it that they forget or what?  Why don't they just pick up where they left off?  Are the markers not on the RBC's anymore?  I've been wondering this since the beginning almost.

Hope everyone is having a good weekend.  Hugs to all the furkids from Tessy & I.

Johnny & Tessy

Just a quicky here....can Vitamin be go bad or does it just lose it's potency?  It's pill form and I always was under the impression that pills can't go bad only the liquid ones can?  Sound right?

Thanks,

Johnny & Tessy

Johnny&Tessy

I've e-mailed a few of them in hopes that maybe they might be able to help with some information or advise but I haven't heard back from them yet.

Don't hesitate to email them *again* and maybe put something specific in the subject line like "IMHA" -- because so often stuff goes to someone's junk mail -- or if they get it on a blackberry and do't ahve time THEN to answer it, it gets forgotten.

Johnny&Tessy

What is it that makes the body "stop" attacking it's own cells?  If we suppress the cells responsible enough is it that they forget or what?  Why don't they just pick up where they left off?  Are the markers not on the RBC's anymore? 

From *my* understanding the body never does *understand* that it is attacking itself.  The way Dr. Demers has explained it to me -- the immune system should go "on" and "off" in response specifically to a threat.  And literally in the cases of auto-immune disease, the immune system literally gets stuck "on" and NEVER shuts off at all.  And the immune system simply generalizes more and more and MORE in an ever-increasing definition of "threat" or "invader" cells.  (like in Billy's case -- the immune system saw the 'threat' of the tick disease and **properly** developed ANTI-bodies in response to deal with the invader cells.  But then rather than shutting "off" the immune system literally kept looking for stuff to respond to -- and since the anti-bodies weren't "normal" the immune system then attacked *them* too, seeing them as "invaders" ... but once it had begun attacking it's very own blood cells (the anti-bodies) it was then simply another step to then attack other immature red blood cells (which were very like the anti-bodies) and then on and on to other red blood cells.

 I'm gonna lose myself AND you if I try to go to far with this -- but I'll embed a few links here if you want to try reading. 

http://www.heelusa.com/Practitioners/FeaturedProductsIndications/Docs/Musculoskeletal_IndicationBrochure.pdf 

 and this one really is tough but good: http://www.symbinatur.com/obrazky/texty/717/academie.pdf

 -Heel and Guna are two of the better known homeopathy companies getting heavily into auto-immune stuff, with the idea that releasing portions of T-cells that have been isolated to take the specific components that in quantity are destructive and use those parts in a homeopathic dilution to  'prod' the body to respond as it should (literally to support rather than REACT) -- both the -Heel and Guna products have those components in them. For example:  "TH3 helper cells are regulatory T-cells"  Traumeel and Zeel in the -Heel line and contain those among others.

But the typical theory used in allopathic medicine by using the steroids & steroid-like drugs as the immune-suppressors is that you FULLY suppress the immune system (to force the immune system "off" in a way) and then you ***gradually*** let up with the immune-suppressors so the immune-system gradually comes back 'on'.

But no -- those blood cells are still the same (and in SOME dogs the fact that they've been given transfusions can sometimes actually make the immune system 'react' to antibodies in the new blood -- which is just one of the reasons why transfusions are seen as "dangerous" and only used to save the life).  What they are relying on is that once "off" the immune system is only **allowed** (by virtue of the immune-suppression of the steroids & steroid-like drugs) so much lee-way to be active.  And the hope is that once the body gets USED TO *not* killing EVERYTHING it will continue along that lazier path.

There is a body principle that when something is less used it atrophies or becomes weaker.  Like muscles in a leg that has been broken and in a case for months -- those muscles -- because they aren't used -- atrophy and then you have to work HARD after the bone knits to build up that muscle again??  ok -- the same thing applies very often thru the entire body -- something disused tends to become lazy.  And in this case that's the theory behind the very very slow reduction in the immune-suppressors.  To give the immune system time to get used to be LESS active and less vigilant.

So, if I'm making sense, this is where the holistic and the allopathic medicines begin to clash.  Because the holistic - and most particularly the homeopathy view -- says that all regular medicines, and to a lesser degree herbals, actually never FIX a problem but rather simply push it deeper "out of the way".  You may simply *stop* an action temporarily but yeah, those "markers" remain and the body is often just awaiting an excuse to erupt into the dysfunctional behavior again.

This is why you read all the huge cautions about avoiding "triggers" and even in the holistic circles the huge broad definition of "triggers" meaning virtually ANY chemical or stressor -- simply because often when the immune system jumps back into this self-destructive behavior it often does so fast, hard and with a vengeance.  And if you read some of the other IMHA/AIHA boards (particularly the AIHA board that is centered in the UK) you will see that often the dogs that initially survive, but then die within a relatively short time-frame have not made it fall into one of two categories.  Either the dog passes because of other organ-related reaction to the meds -- like stroke, embolism, liver/renal failure or disease, diabetes -- OR the IMHA returns in vengeful force literally in an almost instantaneous explosion of the disease that hits SO hard and fast it's unstoppable.  It's the latter I'm referring to -- where some *thing* occurs and the immune system literally explodes back into action.

But the phenomenon that I'm referring to in homotoxicology is specifically to try to re-teach the body to do its job safely.  By supporting the body to do what it *should* do rather than just discouraging it to react at all. 

Homotoxicology is closely related to stuff like stem-cell therapy -- far more bio-medical than just straight homeopathy (but it leans heavily on homopathic remedies to help deliver this support) *and* it also leans heavily on TCVM to help address specific body areas to put the "help" closes to where it's going to directly affect the body system targeted.  (It literally uses acupuncture meridians as the choices to administer the treatments).

Ok -- this is by no means clear or exhaustive but if you simply do a Google search for "homotoxicology T-cells" you'll get a lot of links (more than you'd believe) if you want to read more.

Johnny&Tessy

Just a quicky here....can Vitamin be go bad or does it just lose it's potency?  It's pill form and I always was under the impression that pills can't go bad only the liquid ones can?  Sound right?

Let's define terms -- "bad" -- to me typically that means "rancid" or spoiled.  It's literally part of the decay process and generally not something at all beneficial to the body.  And yes, gelcaps with "oil" in them or gelcaps generally are intended to package something far less refined and far less processed or preserved. 

"pills" are hard and very processed.  somehow that "thing" or medicine or vitamin has been processed and then pressed into a pill shape and then usually dried or coated with something to give it structural integrity (or specifically to force it to only be digested in a particular part of the body).  Generally by the time something is presented in pill form there is very little organic enough left in it to 'decay'.  It can, however lessen in potentcy (and yet other inert properties may remain that may not be helpful either)

"capsules" -- generally cellulose (and then there are other capsules manufactured specifically of veg*n materials rather than gelatin derived from bovine cartilage) which typically contain ground powdered ingredients -- and again, in that whole process of grinding and powdering it can begin to lose it's effectiveness and over time will decrease in effectiveness, efficiency.

So generally you're right -- pills don't usually go 'bad' but become less potent or effective.  However, they can become *contaminated* -- with moisture or other things -- even such things as sunlight can adversely effect certain things (i'm thinking Sam-e is extremely compromised by any sort of light or air and quickly becomes completely worthless).

Just wanted to update---Willow had her annual exam today.  The vet was right with me on my concerns about the rabies vaccine.  And, "technically" she was due today under RI law the vaccine is only good for 2 years.  BUT, she said, let's extend it for another year--based on the new protocols that MOST states are already using.  So, she's legal until June 2010.  Then, I'll have to make a decision again.  But, I'll cross that bridge.  :)

And, no medical exemptions in our state either. 

I need to change some laws!!

Hey Lori

Every year you have to make that decision is a good year right?  I've already made up my mind to be an outlaw.  The laws are ridiculous.  I understand them in a way because there are people who have dogs who are totally irresponsible in their medical care.  But I think that each vet should have the ability to grant a waiver based on how well they know the dog and the owner.  A vet is far more capable of making a decision than the government is when it comes to these things.

To tell you the truth I don't even know if there is a medical exemption in my state.  I told my vet I'm never vaccinating Clops for anything again and he was totally understanding.  I told him I'd only be giving Domingo Rabbies boosters from here on out (now they've changed to every 3 years).  Both my dogs have far surpassed Dr Dodds vaccination recommendations so I feel really good about these decisions.

Give Willow a big hug from me and Cloppy!

Mike

 Got Cyclops' Serum Iron Level Back today.  Its at 76.

 I've spent hundreds of dollars on this test and I'm done doing it.  Mainly because both of my vets are telling me I am throwing good money after bad chasing that number.  My theory about it being low because her PCV was climbing was wrong because its been stable at 46-47 for months and the Serum Iron just won't budge.  

In fact the numbers are lower now than they were before I started giving her suppliments.  My vet said that unless I wanted to give a dog a Serum Iron level from the time they are a puppy so I'd have a baseline then there is no way to know if her Serum Iron level has always been this low or not.

So I'm done with it.  Tired of chasing numbers and tired of stressing out and worrying all the time.  Just going to do the best I can do. 

I just had to vent - sick and tired of this disease and the stress its causing me.

I honestly don't think I'd supplement any more.  Iron can go 'hiding' in the body ... it's a metal, and it doesn't just 'wash out' of the body and as long as she isn't *bleeding* she's not actually *losing* it (as long as the packed cell isn't plumeting all over).  You're more likely to get toxicity with too much (even if the numbers don't show it).  I think she needed it at first ... but take a break from it and see how it goes. 

This disease is tougher than anyone knows.  You've hassled with that the way Billy and I hassled with the UTIs -- it was like nothing we did helped us "win". 

Just do your best and take a deep breath.  Sometimes with that disease you actually forget how to simply 'breathe'.  *hugs*

willowchow

The vet was right with me on my concerns about the rabies vaccine.  And, "technically" she was due today under RI law the vaccine is only good for 2 years.  BUT, she said, let's extend it for another year--based on the new protocols that MOST states are already using.  So, she's legal until June 2010. 

 That's great Lori; must be a big relief for you.

GratefulDawg

I just had to vent - sick and tired of this disease and the stress its causing me.

 You've been through a lot with Cyclops, but I'm glad her CBC was good except for the lymphocytes. I hope lowering the cyclo helps.