AIHA or IMHA

    • Bronze

     Johnny, I don't know what to think anymore either.  I mean here is the address for my report:

     Antech Diagnostics
     2433 Globe Cove Rd
     Southaven, MS 38671

     And I understand that they would need a lot of facilities all over the country but shouldn't they have the same reference range for the Serum Iron?  The fact that my reference says 98-220 and yours has that very narrow range, but both from the same Lab is really weird to me. 

    I think you have the right idea about switching her vitamins.  Who knows maybe the puking is from too much iron?  Hopefully if you discontinue the Vitamins that have iron then the levels will drop to normal.  Of course you wouldn't have so much to drop going by my scale but a long way to go according ot yours.  I know what you mean about always something to worry about.  

    If Tessy is still on Pred I would keep her on the Omeprazole until she is off both the Pred and the Aspirin.  I'd keep her on the Aspirin until you are sure her platelets are down well within the normal range.  I still have Clop on Aspirin and a drug similar to Omepazole and she'll stay on both of those until the Platelets are normal for at least 2 months.  I want to be sure that I don't pull her off the Aspirin and then the Platelets shoot up again.  By the way, for Clops the Platelets were normal until her HCT started to climb rapidly.  Not sure if there is any corolation but I wouldn't be surprised if Tessy has high platelets until her HCT is normal and stable for a while.  

    I don't think there is much harm in keeping her on that ultra low dose of aspirin, it makes me feel better doing that just to avoid a clot.

    • Gold Top Dog

    the comparison levels that you posted above between lab and univ -- that's likely just the difference between the machines.  I've seen two machines calibrated by the same company measure the same blood at the same time and come up different.  Literally just one drop of blood more or less can skew results. 

    I would definitely stop using the multi vitamin -- particularly if it's for humans b/c they really aren't proportioned right for a dog.  Other things in there could be skewing the results (because of the delivery system used in the pills).  some of the enteric stuff doesn't get digested well in dogs.  One of the reasons FOR doing these levels is to find out where you are.

    Do you have a 'crit from Tessy from BEFORE the IMHA?  Do you know what "normal" was for her??  Remember normal is normal for that individual -- and breed can have a lot to do with it.  Billy's "normal" is high 30's -- NOT in the 40's where it was for so long during treatment (I swear, his blood got so thick it scared the bejeebers out of me)

    I'm on my lunch so I know I'm missing some of this. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I found out that the 37% from Dr. Dodds was done as a PCV but labelled as an HCT.  Go figure eh.  I can't help but wonder if this is her normal range.  She's never had blood tests before her sickness so I have no idea what her normal crit would be.

    The multivitamin Tessy was taking is called Vitasorb (I think)....by Pfizer.  They are for dogs.  Her doctor still doesn't know what to think of the high iron level and is waiting to get ahold of Dr. Dodds to see what she says.  SOOO.....I'm in limbo now wondering if this is bad or alright or what.  Driving me crazy to say the least.

    Hopefully it is nothing to be overly concerned about.  Her satph is coming back and I picked up a swab from the vets today to have sent off to culture.  $130 just to send it off!!!  I told them today they shuold name a room after Tessy after all the money I've spent there!  $10 just for them to write a prescription for Omeprazole.  I made my opinion known to them on this one!

    Anyhow....gotta take care of some MORE business.

    Hope all is well with everybody.

    Johnny & Tessy

    • Gold Top Dog

    A PCV can vary widely -- because again the *amount* of blood in that tiny teeny tube makes or breaks the whole thing and if that wee tube isn't filled with exactly the right amount of blood it can make it vary widely!!

    And yeah, we affectionately refere to Dr. Bailey's parking lot at the Kennedy Causeway!! LOL

    • Gold Top Dog

    Can you buy Selsun Blue shampoo (like the human dandruff shampoo)?  It ROCKS for staph/yeasty skin.  Don't leave it on a long time -- and then when you do the final rinse put about 15 drops of tea tree oil and 15 drops of lavender oil (essential oils) in the final couple of gallons and stand her in it and pour it over and over her with a mug. 

    The tea tree and lavender will conditon the coat and will help fight the yeast and/or staph.  You can bathe  really frequently to help deal with staphy skin.  PanOxyl (human acne soap) in the 5% bar is also superb -- get some ex-foliating gloves in the bath/beauty section and put them on and use them to lather the bar soap and then bathe her with it -- it's also really good for staphy skin.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I was talking to Tessy's doctor today concerning reducing Tessy's meds.  I'm a little concerned to say the least. 

    I know that reductions can be nerve wracking but the thing with the way we are going to be reducing really got me on edge.  The plan is to start reducing the prednisone form 50mg to 40mg for 5 days, then drop to 35 for 5 days, then 30, etc.  This all seems so quick to me and the chance of relapse really got me scared.  Usually I would question this quick of a reduction but since it was on Dr. Dodds' recommendation now I don't know what to do.

    Has anybody reduced meds this way?  I wonder how long it takes for the adrenal glands to start making their own cortisole?

    They also want me to discontinue the aspirin and leave her on the omeprazole.  Any thoughts on this?  Wonder if this is also too early.  This was also a recommendation from Dr. Dodds.

    Tessy does seem to be doing better this past month (with the exception of the puking incidents she had) and I really do want her to get off the meds.....I just don't know if this would be rushing or not.

    AHHHHHHHHH........this is just about enough to give a person a headache.

    Hope everybody and their furkids are doing well today.

    Hugs from Tessy and I.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Another thing....since we will be dropping from 50mg to 40mg pred now Tessy takes 5mg pills....SOOO.....this means since she takes her pred all at once just once a day she'll have to take 8 of these 5mg pills.  Is this alright or will it dissolve too fast into the sytem?

    Just a quick correction from above...The plan is to start reducing the prednisone form 50mg to 40mg for 5 days, then drop to 35 for 5 days, then 30, etc.  SHOULD READ....The plan is to start reducing the prednisone form 50mg to 40mg for 5 days, then drop to 30for 5 days, then 20, etc. 

    We'll be going by 10's.

    Johnny & Tessy

    • Gold Top Dog

    Pred is typically a CHEAP drug -- not sure in Canada, but it comes in all varieties of sizes.  But each pill should be formulated to dissolve properly.  They usually give a bigger pill and have you break them so I'd think smaller whole pills would be fine.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Johnny, ask your vet if they can give you some 20mg pills.  And, Willow's vet was having me split it into a AM and PM dose when she was getting that much.  In other words, it was 20mg in the AM, 20mg in the evening.  I'd check with your vet, they might want you to space the dose out for Tessy too. 

    • Bronze

    Johnny&Tessy

    This all seems so quick to me and the chance of relapse really got me scared.  Usually I would question this quick of a reduction but since it was on Dr. Dodds' recommendation now I don't know what to do.

    Has anybody reduced meds this way?  I wonder how long it takes for the adrenal glands to start making their own cortisole?

     

     

    Johnny,

    We lowered Clops' Pred that fast if not faster.  I was scared to do so as well.  But it worked out for the best.  I wish they'd let Val lower Coopers Pred a little quicker to be honest.  I understand your feelings on it and you can always make the executive decision to slow it down a little.  

    As far as the Aspirin, I would continue to give that if the platelets are above normal.  My vet at OSU never wanted to give Aspirin but once the Platelets got high, Callie mentioned that I should ask about Aspirin again and when I did the vet gave the go ahead on it.

    I've gotten through this by listening to everyone then doing my own thing. If you went vet shopping you'd find plenty of vets who would tell you to continue the Aspirin. You'd have just as many who would probably say to stop.  Same with lowering the Pred.  Some will go slower, Dr Dodds and those who follow her like my vet at OSU tend to get the dogs off the Pred quicker.

     

    • Puppy
    My regular vet wanted to lower the pred fast but the specialist at Arboretum strongly believed that we can't lower the pred fast at all since he has been on it for several months. Cooper was taking 20mg in the morning and 20mg in the evening. Once his PCV was in normal range, the doctor said we could begin lowering the pred every two weeks by 5mg as long as he was continuing to stay in the normal range. My vet did a bunch of research and found this to be the safest way to lower the pred. We buy the 20mg pills and cut them up. Today I take Cooper in for a CBC and liver screen. As long as his numbers are ok, we can lower the pred to 10mg in the am and 10mg in the pm. It is definitely a slow decline, but it has worked out well. Every two weeks we get to lower the pred, my little guy starts feeling better and he begins to be more of himself. I'm not sure if that is all in my head or not but the amount of water he is drinking and the number of times he has to go outside decreases each time. Less accidents and a happier dog! There are so many different people who have gone through different things. Many vets believe differently. Just take in as much info as you can and make the best choice for you and Tessy. For me, I am one who normally follows whatever the doctor says since they are the ones with the education, but with this it is a little more difficult. I'll let you all know what happens with Cooper today. Cross your fingers!
    • Bronze

     Well said Val.  But what do you do when one doctor says lower it fast and another says lower it slow?  Thats the thing with IMHA there seems to be varying opinions on just about everything. 

     Its not all in your head, Cooper will get back to himself more and more as you lower.  There certainly isn't anything wrong with the way you are lowering the Pred, there is no way something could go more wrong doing it your way than the way Johnny's doctor wants to do it.  Thats why I told him he could always take charge and slow the process down.  

     I think you are a lot like me Val.. I tend to make my decisions based on.. if the dog drops dead am I going to feel guilty about something that I did.  And as long as I can justify it that way then I go ahead and do what I want.  LOL!  Not very scientific I know but its worked so far for me. And your way has certainly worked for you too!

     Stop being such a stranger Val.. will be looking forward to seeing Coops results!

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Hey all.  Hope all is good in DOGGY WORLD!

    Well, I think I can FINALLY answer your question as to why some vets will lower faster and why some lower slower.  I think it all has to do with their understanding of this disease.  Many MANY doctors are educated JUST enough to fight these diseases.  In other words they know the disease but they are far from being specialists.  Many will rely on their veterinary books to help them figure things out.  I think in a lot of cases doctors hear or read that the weaning and reducing of the immunospressive drugs have to be done slowly, which is correct, but then there are some that go a step farther and reduce more quickly in the beginning, which is also correct.  My understaning is that the adrenal glands are the bodies main supplier of cortisole to the body.  Since the body is being so pumped full of drugs the adrenal glands look at this as too much steroids in the body and "go to sleep" so to speak.  NOW...most doctors believe that we have to reduce meds slowly so that the adrenal glands can get used to the changes in levels of corticosteroids in the body but the thing is that we have to have these levels really low befor the body starts to react and create it's own.  For the most part...the amount of these drugs being put in the body is far greater than what the body produces.  So...according to this (and what Dr. Dodds explained to me) faster reductions can take place at first but once the levels and amounts of the drugs get lower....then the reducitons get slower as the adrenal glands start to "wake up".

    I don't know if this makes sense or not....htis is just my understanding of this from all the reading I've done as well as from Dr. Dodds.  Hopefully Callie can chime in on this and tell me if this sounds about right.

    Hope all to best to everyone.

    Johnny & Tessy

    • Gold Top Dog

    Yeah, that's partly it.  And I'm going to say right off that generally when you are an owner with one of these dogs by the time they start to reduce the drugs you feel like "Two Face" and you are more than slightly paranoid ANYWAY. 

    Why?  Because you know the drugs are damaging the dog and you HATE the side effects and you can't wait to get them OFF the !$@#$)!@*%!#* stuff!!

    HOWEVER, at the same darned time you are terrified to change a*n*y*t*h*i*n*g because the dog might crash and you're generally so terrified all the time anyway! 

    *yeah* been there done that lived it!!!

    And ... yes, the initial reductions (and you have to remember some dogs are on ONE drug, some are on TWO drugs and some are on THREE drugs ****ALL**** with different absorption rates) may be faster, particularly if they are trying to get a dog OFF a particular drug for a medical reason

    I think it's a little bit too simplistic to say that it's a difference in education -- I think medical opinion and experience has a TON to do with it, as well as the above-mentioned huge difference in the combination of drugs and amounts a dog may be on. 

    There is also a cost factor -- and the fact that particularly with Atopica Cyclosporine -- it only comes in specific increments -- 10, 25, 50, 100 -- so if the dog is on 200 mg a day -- if you tried to go to say 185 mg you'd have to give FOUR pills (a 100+50+25+10) which would frankly cost WAY MORE than 200 mg.  And honestly 200 mg per day is more than most people's house payment A MONTH.  People are already stretched with this disease ANYWAY so I'm sure that may actually have been part of the factor in how they reduce it. 

    We don't want to THINK that finances should have a thing to do with this -- I mean once you've gone THIS far ....

    But it DOES.  Particularly in today's economic climate -- Because altho someone might have been able to squeak by in December, now it's JUNE ... maybe their hours have been cut for summer, or maybe a spouse has lost their job ... or maybe the MONTHS of this never-ending expense has now eaten up savings.  So something's gotta give.

    In Billy's case it was a whole different thing.      He started on prednisone.  Then they added the Atopica (and a whole freaking lot of it for his size 150 mg).  Add to that the cost of SIX TRANSFUSIONS in a month (we're now up to about $7000 in about 6-8 weeks).  But it TOOK nearly 6 weeks for his body to kick in and his kidneys were taking a BEATING.

    But it was SEPTEMBER before we felt we could lower **anything**.  THREE months going full tilt and his poor kidneys - I was terrifed.  So when they began to reduce it was the pred and they got him TOTALLY off it within like 2 months. 

    I was freaking terrified.  But he held.  It was the first drug in ... and felt like the easiest (and cheapest) but they determined it was the hardest on the kidneys.  But then they made us wait almost 2 more months before we STARTED to reduce the cyclosporine.  And that went from 150 to 125.  I sweat bullets then too.  But then they went to 110. 

    The interesting thing was he had MORE reactions at 110 than at 150.  His skin was worse, his utis were worse EVERYTHING was more difficult. 

    But dang ... then when he went to 100 his pack cell bobbled. 

    ACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

    So .... *sigh* we went back up to 125 AGAIN.  Back to 110 (gag -- that was SOOO awful -- his skin was SO infected, inflamed ... and what are you going to do huh?? Put him on ... STEROIDS????? That *was* the joke ... poor dog had such crappy skin - I was bathing him daily, benedryl, and everything trying to keep the allergies at bay.

    But this time we got to 100 with no incident.  Then we went to 95 (that's a 50, 25, and TWO 10s -- not cheap) ... then incrementally down.  And further between reductions. 

    I think going from 2 a day to 1 a day was the scariest. 

    But I've also quizzed human doctors on how they reduce prednisone after long term use in humans (and even shorter term but large amount use in humans).  Some simply go half, half, half, half every few days.  and 3 weeks you're "off" pretty much no matter the dose.  Others -- not so much.  Sometimes it differs by what they're treating for, sometimes by the individual ...

    One day I flatly asked a doctor "why? and how to you determine that?" and he said "the difference my dear is simple.  It's this mysterious thing called 'medical opinon'.  It depends on your experience, where you went to school, the individual patient and what side effects they may have, and a ton of other things.  But MOSTLY it's medical opinion.  They began using a protocol that seemed to work and they've gotten comfortable with it and continue it.  It may be different than the next guy ... but equally as valid.  Or maybe not with THIS patient.  And therein lies what they call the 'medical arts'."

    It's true.  There is not one-size-fits-all directions for this stuff.  Because each being is unique and has their own unique problems and side effects and the owners have what they can deal with and tolerate.  . 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Coopbay
    the doctor said we could begin lowering the pred every two weeks by 5mg as long as he was continuing to stay in the normal range.

    Thats how I had to lower Willow's too.  She got tested every two weeks and then the next day the Dr would call me with the results and tell me what to give her.